Wheel Size for Herald

[ratchetmonkeys]

Great big hello to you all. 
 

just bought my first and only herald after wanting one since the age of 12 and I have some specific ideas that I want, one of those being much wider wheels, preferably steel wheels 13” 14” or 15” 

could someone point me in the right direction of some. I did read that the formula Ford wheels fit but the set I’m looking at have a backplate of 112 and it seems the herald is 83, if I’m right that means they would sit inboard af 122mm

 

any help is very much appreciated  

 

[Clive]

Welcome.

Bad news for you if you want the car to drive well, Heralds (and most of the other small chassis cars) do not respond well to wide tyre, or in particular low profiles.

Backspace rather than backplate? (spellcheck?) a wider wheel will need to have a larger backspace so it doesn't rub the outer arches. The ones that will dffo fit will be dunlop lp923 (same look as std herald , but 5.5j) or even the new 5.5 hubcap wheels. Some formula ford vary  in offset, so care is indeed needed. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143802454325?hash=item217b4b5135:g:4ewAAOSwANZgpTnb

[ratchetmonkeys]

Thanks for the reply. The formula Ford wheels I can get my hands on are 112mm backspace, would these be the correct fit due to the extra width of the wheel. 
I like the ones in the link but preferably without the caps

i did find some wolf race TR7 wheels that I really like, if I read correctly there are a straight fit 

[Pete Lewis]

TR7 has 7/16 unf wheel studs ang bigger nuts etc. not sure about the spigot diameter 

as you have a 12/50 what are you trying to achieve  the few horses will be overwhelmed by the tyre energies 

dont forget upping the diameter reduces the torque at the wheels unless you have rubber band tyres which are totally unsuited to a heralds suspension 

and with only ( if youre lucky) 50 hp could be overgeared at 15"  

so why buy a Herald and then turn it into a headache 

Pete

 

 

[A TR7 16V]

I've got 13 x 5.5 inch spitfire wheels with 175/70 tires on the Herald at the moment. The tire size was not a conscious decision, they came with the wheels and I just bunged them on. The std speedo reads spot on against a GPS head-up-display one. The only real problem was they came with no hub caps, and when I got a set the wheel nuts were wrong for them. But that's all sorted now.

By eye, it's a tight fit between the tire and the wheel arch at the back, but I've been running for a while and there are no marks on the tires even on the pot holed roads of W. Lancs where there's no shortage of sleeping policemen.

There is an issue that the near side front tire catches on the anti-roll bar a bit at full lock. But because there's an inch gap on the off side at opposite lock, I think that's the guy who replaced the knuckle tried to get the steering wheel centred (and failed) with the tracking, not disconnecting the knuckle to set it right. I will be getting that fixed.

[Pete Lewis]

175/70 is the std replacement  used by many , too wide for a std  4" rim and marginal on a $.5 rim  on 5,5 they sit nicely without the side walls ballooning 

having the rack off centre after 50 years of twiddling is not uncommon but i wouldnt advise using full lock it puts terrific stress on the diff

and full lock is hardly needed in motoring these days

bear in mind  std 12/50 had a 3.5 rim and 5.20/13 tyres 

and unless you change the load  and the pressure the footprint remains the same size   as load x area = pressure   cant have one without the other 

Pete

[ratchetmonkeys]

1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said:

TR7 has 7/16 unf wheel studs ang bigger nuts etc. not sure about the spigot diameter 

as you have a 12/50 what are you trying to achieve  the few horses will be overwhelmed by the tyre energies 

dont forget upping the diameter reduces the torque at the wheels unless you have rubber band tyres which are totally unsuited to a heralds suspension 

and with only ( if youre lucky) 50 hp could be overgeared at 15"  

so why buy a Herald and then turn it into a headache 

Pete

 

 

Cheers Pete, I build custom motorcycles, I work for a Legends Racing Team and I’m a mechanic/MOT tester so I have big plans for power and suspension which I think I have all sorted in my head (headache) but I want to keep the body as clean and standard as possible, the engine is being swapped out so there will be plenty power but I will need to plant that power down to the road. 

I want to keep the body standard so I really don’t want to be cutting the body so the widest wheels I can get will be a good start to help get the power down 

 

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

A good topic for a restoration thread. Plenty of photos and let us know how you get on.

I declined this one earlier in the week... lowered and race-prepared but definitely not for me.

[A TR7 16V]

1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said:

the footprint remains the same size   as load x area = pressure   cant have one without the other 

Pete

Yes, but while Guillaume Amontons' two laws of friction have that for a given coefficient of friction between two surfaces it's only the force perpendicular to the interface that determine the frictional force, Amontons' laws only applies to true solids.

But with rubber being a semi-solid, the frictional force, i.e. grip, is related to both the area and the shape of the contact, and the tread pattern, in complex ways. The result is that for wider tires of the same compound you can apply greater accelerative, braking, and cornering forces before it loses traction on any given surface, including wet tarmac. 

In this context, "complex ways" means ways I haven't taken the trouble to properly understand the physics of, but I accept as being true.

Graham

[Steve P]

Also chassis strengthening will be required if your upping the power and drivetrain.

Steve

[Clive]

6 hours ago, ratchetmonkeys said:

Cheers Pete, I build custom motorcycles, I work for a Legends Racing Team and I’m a mechanic/MOT tester so I have big plans for power and suspension which I think I have all sorted in my head (headache) but I want to keep the body as clean and standard as possible, the engine is being swapped out so there will be plenty power but I will need to plant that power down to the road. 

I want to keep the body standard so I really don’t want to be cutting the body so the widest wheels I can get will be a good start to help get the power down 

 

 

 

What sort of power/torque are you thinking of. The herald rear suspension (or at least the diff on a 1200) is pretty weak....

 

[ratchetmonkeys]

13 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

TR7 has 7/16 unf wheel studs ang bigger nuts etc. not sure about the spigot diameter 

as you have a 12/50 what are you trying to achieve  the few horses will be overwhelmed by the tyre energies 

dont forget upping the diameter reduces the torque at the wheels unless you have rubber band tyres which are totally unsuited to a heralds suspension 

and with only ( if youre lucky) 50 hp could be overgeared at 15"  

so why buy a Herald and then turn it into a headache 

Pete

 

 

Cheers Pete, I build custom motorcycles, I work for a Legends Racing Team and I’m a mechanic/MOT tester so I have big plans for power and suspension which I think I have all sorted in my head (headache) but I want to keep the body as clean and standard as possible, the engine is being swapped out so there will be plenty power but I will need to plant that power down to the road. 

I want to keep the body standard so I really don’t want to be cutting the body so the widest wheels I can get will be a good start to help get the power down 

5 hours ago, clive said:

What sort of power/torque are you thinking of. The herald rear suspension (or at least the diff on a 1200) is pretty weak....

 

The plan is to fit a Yamaha XJR 1250 engine, Legend Car rear prop and diff. The legends use a Toyota rear drum setup and shafts. If I have to I will get J&R to make me some custom shafts but this may all change once I have it on the ramp but that’s the plan 

 

[Jeffds1360]

Interesting! A 100+ bhp motor cycle engine in a herald! Not heard of anything similar. 5 speed gearbox and chain drive? Will be an unusual conversion.

Pop down to cullercoats when it's done

 We can do a drag race down my drive

[PeteH]

I read somehere, that Suzuki, Bike Engines, go nicely into Smart Cars?. Having had a Smart, I can see it would , but handling that sort of power onto the tramac would be "interesting".

Having just (well 2 years back and still counting) Refurbed a Herald Chassis. I see a lot of "stiffening" required to cope with much more than the Herald already has. Having had a Vitesse in the 80`s I am aware, just keeping the Plot on the road at times can be "hairy" in standard form.

Good Luck.

[Peter Truman]

Wasn't the Honda S600 sports car chain drive to, wonder what that was like to drive, & the UK Berkley, but I think that had a thumper of a British bike engine.

[Clive]

6 hours ago, ratchetmonkeys said:

 

The plan is to fit a Yamaha XJR 1250 engine, Legend Car rear prop and diff. The legends use a Toyota rear drum setup and shafts. If I have to I will get J&R to make me some custom shafts but this may all change once I have it on the ramp but that’s the plan 

 

Interesting.... The power won't be a problem, 175 tyres will be plenty. My spit is approx 180bhp and I have run 175's no issues. Well, I can spin them up if I try, but not an issue. 

The chassis will be fine if after approx 1962 (the mk1 chassis is weak and prone to issues). I have previously run a 2.5 vitesse, sam chassis but massive torque and that was fine.

Thinking about the rear, and not knowing the torque characteristics of the bike engine, but a later diff (late herald with big quarter shafts, or vitesse/GT6 /late spitfire) should cope if the power is 100-130bhp. Helps keep the IVA at bay too....

[ratchetmonkeys]

The chassis did cross my mind but luckily my good friend worked for chassis development for Toyota for 10 years. He’s also worked on load of heralds and repaired/replaced the chassis sections on the herald next to the prop tunnel (according to him) he will be strengthening the chassis when the tubs are off and making all the repairs regardless of what engine goes in. 
 

the Suzuki bandit 1200 oil cooled engine is great and I did consider using it, I just built one so i have a decent idea what’s going on inside the engine and you can turbo the oil cooled engine very easily. 

The only reason I was going to use the yamaha engine is the diff from the LEGEND race cars have reverse and I can get my hands on a complete setup so no real manufacturing of parts, just make em fit 

im going to use a Motogadget blue for the body control module too so most of the original electrics is being swapped out for PWM (pulse width modulation) . Already fitted several of thes units to bikes and will work perfectly for  the herald 

Here’s a pic of the bike I just built, hopefully the herald will be to the same standard 

[ratchetmonkeys]

2 hours ago, Jeffds1360 said:

Interesting! A 100+ bhp motor cycle engine in a herald! Not heard of anything similar. 5 speed gearbox and chain drive? Will be an unusual conversion.

Pop down to cullercoats when it's done

 We can do a drag race down my drive

I’m going to be building that car not far from you actually, I’m a mechanic in backworth. 

[Jeffds1360]

Not far at all!.

In 1971 I worked at 'Moorside car repairs'  at the top of the windy road from Earsdon. I think it is known as the Backworth scrappy now  the parents in law ran the Beehive Inn back then.

[ratchetmonkeys]

12 minutes ago, Jeffds1360 said:

Not far at all!.

In 1971 I worked at 'Moorside car repairs'  at the top of the windy road from Earsdon. I think it is known as the Backworth scrappy now  the parents in law ran the Beehive Inn back then.

Our garage is literally next door to the scrappy. 

[Jeffds1360]

I'll maybe call round sometime!

[ahebron]

I always thought a Triumph Rocket 111 motor (2300/2500)  would go well in a small chassis Triumph as long as it is not too tall. Keeps the name correct as well.
Not many cheap Rocket 111 motors down here.

To the OP MGF wheels are the same PCD and if alloys arent your thing then the spare wheel is a steel space saver 14". Plenty of small chassis cars about running MGF wheels.

I had a friend running a Daimler 2.5 V8 in a Mk4 with the Triumph diff. He would swap the diffs every second weekend when racing the car, it was a very very fast car in practice days. Was two cars behind on a the road when we heard/felt the diff blow on one trip. It was when he fitted nitrous that it started to get interesting. Rear suspension was pretty much standard Mk4 Spitfire. Car eventually ended up with a DOHC Isuzu motor.

 

Adrian

[Jeffds1360]

Well met Mark.

That is a cracking body and chassis you have. Good luck with the revised plan of the turbo mx5 engine.

I will return to see the progress. 

PS check the rear leaf spring and shockers/trunnions!

[Steve P]

Just to give you an idea,this is my Herald with Dunlop LP923 5.5j with 175/70 tyres on.It`s not lowered,the spring is a bit tired.