Type 12 or Type 14 Calipers - my car has one of each!

[Jon J 1250]

Hi first post, long time reader.

Just getting to work on resurrecting my one previous owner 1965 Herald 12/50.

It has been in dry storage since 2006 after its last MOT expired, it's solid, well cared for by both owners, but naturally after so long in hibernation, the brake and clutch hydraulics need to be serviced.

Having cleaned honed and resealed the master cyls and rear wheel cyls, I removed the front calipers at the weekend ready for stripdown.

To my surprise I found I have a Type 12 on the nearside and a Type 14 on the offside!

I've driven it 10000 miles like that and never noticed, I have complete service records for this car, the previous owner was meticulous with mileages and dates of repairs all recorded etc.

Surely this would not have been done from the factory would it?

This leaves the dilemma, which type should I go with when servicing, common sense says Type 14, but my instinct to keep as original as possible says Type 12, am I being daft favouring the earlier type?

Best Regards

Jon

[Pete Lewis]

you would be best suited and more pad options with a pair of 14s 

there can be a contact with the chamfer on the hub  later the hub csating was machined to give clearance (nothing a bit of angle grind wont solve)

[DanMi]

I believe that a herald in 1965 most would have left the factory with drum brakes, disks being dealer fit or later retro fit or special order (so originality not necessarily a concern). The type 12 have less choice of pads. I would therefore go with type 14, as Pete says they may foul the hub but either grind or get later hubs from any later Herald/spitfire. I have type 12 on my spit mk2 and they work well enough though, but parts harder to get

[Jon J 1250]

Fair points, Type 14 is what my head is saying for those reasons, but the car is very original so kind of really want to keep it that way. (that old dilemma, which afflicts some of us!))

I'll have a look at the hubs and see if that points towards which type it originally had, Type 12 I would guess, but I think 1965 is the changeover year, so may not be all that helpful. (Herald 12/50's were fitted with front discs from new)

I just can't believe I've been driving the car around in the past and never noticed, there was no pull to one side or anything to suggest they were odd calipers.

[Pete Lewis]

yes surprised the MOt didnt show some imbalance the pads are different not by miles but ther you go 

classics and their surprises  are often a surprise 

Pete

[DanMi]

I doubt that 1965 was the changeover year as the spitfire didn't get type 14 until the mk3 in 1967.  If you want originality then I would suggest getting a heritage certificate which would note if there was any special fitments at the factory ie disk brakes. It is likely that they were changed early in the cars life to improve braking over drums, so they could well be later hubs etc.

[Jon J 1250]

I decided to go original Type 12, despite being less convenient, she now has matching calipers for the first time since Feb 1987 (i found the repair receipt for the incorrect Type 14 fitment).

😀👍

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

Perfectly adequate for a Herald! I hope that disc looks worse than it really is, but a few (careful) trips to get the pads bedded in will soon have it shiny again.

[PeteH]

Couple of questions?

1) where the later (14) disks ever fitted to the herald O/E. 2)how does one identify the one from the other?.

eg;. My 13/60 has got nearly new disk`s and pad`s fitted. I just cleaned them up and put them back. but which ones will I have?.

Pete

[Pete Lewis]

herald spitty vit6 all have only one disc

https://www.canleyclassics.com/?catalogue=triumph-herald-13/60&diagram=triumph-herald-13/60-brakes

Pete

[PeteH]

Hi

Type 14 is quoted I see. So do I assume they would have been O/E in 1970/1?

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

15 minutes ago, PeteH said:

Couple of questions?

1) where the later (14) disks ever fitted to the herald O/E. 2)how does one identify the one from the other?.

eg;. My 13/60 has got nearly new disk`s and pad`s fitted. I just cleaned them up and put them back. but which ones will I have?.

Pete

Discs are all the same throughout the production life of the Herald and Spitfire, not sure about the early Vitesse but GT6 is definitely larger. The hubs for both Spitfire and Herald were initially the same but when the Spitfire gained type 14 calipers the hubs had to be chamfered to clear the bigger calipers. Many Heralds with disc brakes will take type 12 but not 14 without work on the edge of the existing hub, or later replacement hubs where the outer edge has already been reduced slightly - you can see it if you compare the two (I thought I had a photo somewhere about but can't find it.)

 

[Pete Lewis]

canley use the oe parts list    13/60 was always type 14  , with the back of the hub machine chamfered to give clearance 

earlier cars  had 12s  with just a casting chamfer  

[Jon J 1250]

15 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Perfectly adequate for a Herald! I hope that disc looks worse than it really is, but a few (careful) trips to get the pads bedded in will soon have it shiny again.

Thanks, I am hoping so, the rust is years of dry garage storage, so not too bad, and no scoring on them.

I Iast drove my 12/50 back from the TSSC Stafford show in 2006 when the original Type 12 caliper began to stick, so I put it back into the garage fully intending to fix it....15 years later I have, and returned it to original spec as until now I didn't realise the calipers were mismatched. (life got in the way)

[DanMi]

type 14 came in with the spit mk3 and herald 1360 so about 1967. Easy way to tell the type 12 are held together with 2 bolts the 14 with 4

[Colin Lindsay]

I knew I had photographs somewhere and as usual found them whilst looking for something else.

The rusty brown hub to the left is for type 12 - much rounder and thicker at the outer edge. The darker one to the right is the later version for type 14s, and you can see how much the outer rim has been thinned to clear the bigger caliper. The early version will fit type 12 only and the later will allow both to be fitted. Just not at the same time!

  

[Wagger]

I know it is a while since you poted this, but I will soon have an entire LH assembly for a Herald and a pair of type 14 calipers ready to go.

My 2 litre vitesse had been fitted with a Herald LH set of parts.

Let me know if you need anything.

[Colin Lindsay]

Have you sold the type 14s yet? 

I've just found out I've got a dodgy one so the choice is either to refurbish it myself, or buy - incidentally I see James Paddock are £41 for refurbished plus £25 surcharge, or £51 outright for new. Anyone know what quality the new ones are, compared to refurbished?

[Clive]

Colin, have you not seen the posts about the new ones? machined a tad wrong, the seals grip the pistons too tight giving a long brake pedal which is near impossible to sort. Some people reckon it eventually improves. 

I would get refurbished, at least they will be correct. 

[Colin Lindsay]

15 minutes ago, clive said:

Colin, have you not seen the posts about the new ones? machined a tad wrong, the seals grip the pistons too tight giving a long brake pedal which is near impossible to sort. Some people reckon it eventually improves. 

I would get refurbished, at least they will be correct. 

Thanks Clive - I knew there was something niggling about them. Must dig out an old one from somewhere as an exchange.

[Peter Truman]

Colin how is your one damaged if its just seized pistons try the grease gun trick, I've just done it on a set of Type14's, & it worked a treat, my usual 100psi compressed air didn't work.

I had to make up a bleed nipple (top broken off) with a grease nipple end attached (threaded in). Once the pistons are out usually any caliper piston bore damage/rust can be sorted, and new pistons and the full car caliper seal kits can be purchased for around 33quid UK (biggred4u).

I'm just in the process of doing it for the daughter's Mk2 Spit upgraded brakes, but I'm having to use early Escort/Cortina Type 14's due to non availability of Triumph bits here in Aus & the 2nd hand units I purchased off UK ebay were scrapped by the UK shipper as dangerous items, Thankfully I was fully refunded & seller was paid to.

It looks like the Escort Type 14's will need a little fettling to get the rotar to run central in the caliper, it requires either shim the rotar off the hub or machine/file a little off the inside boss on the caliper mounting, won't affect the caliper mounting strength, hey it keeps you busy in lock down's. At least dong it yourself you know the quality of the workmanship!

[NonMember]

As Peter says, the actual refurbishing process isn't hard so I'd be tempted to DIY it. I did the pair of type 16s on my Spitfire myself. The hardest part is cleaning up the outside (although I have a blast cabinet so it wasn't a problem).

[Colin Lindsay]

17 minutes ago, NonMember said:

As Peter says, the actual refurbishing process isn't hard so I'd be tempted to DIY it. I did the pair of type 16s on my Spitfire myself. The hardest part is cleaning up the outside (although I have a blast cabinet so it wasn't a problem).

Done it many times before, type 12, 14 and 16, just too lazy and too many other jobs, plus it was for a quick fix given the looming MOT... but Paddocks are out of stock so I'll order rubber seals and rebuild my own. I have plenty of pistons, both mild and stainless steel, but at present no seals unless they're salted away somewhere else. The pistons aren't seized, one is just lazy, but both badly marked round the outer edge.