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Hydrogen


PeterH
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10 hours ago, Chris A said:

I don't follow the development of EVs & their charging in any detail, but I assume if you plug in at a public charging point you pay, so you should either get a receipt at the time or much more likely it just appears on your plastic card statement, just like a petrol one so no problem?

I do know that when my local town first introduced charging points they were free whether that was a policy to get them used, known about or they just thought the bill would be low and offset by extra spending in the town centre I don't know. After a while they stopped it and the electricity has to be paid for. 

I was thinking about the range issue. I tend to fill my 13/60 at around 150 mile intervals, it is good for more but I like to keep it 'charged' ready for a run. Last year I did a trip out for a couple of days covering a large part of Normandy on small rural roads not trunk roads. I have to admit that I did have a little appréhension at times about where the next 'charging' point would be, petrol stations are few and far between in the countryside. I did carry a backup jerry can in the boot just in case. Can't do that with an EV I guess :rolleyes:

Yes on the road would be fine - at home I'm not so sure unless I meter it (Which I can easily enough) 

And then I get 45p/mile for the first 10k and 25p/mile thereafter - which is offsetted against the fuel that I buy on the fuel card. Not sure how it works with electric. Same I assume

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22 hours ago, Badwolf said:

To those of a certain age hydrogen brings up the thoughts, rightly or wrongly, of the airship disasters and the fires which destroyed them and took so many lives, when the hydrogen ignited. 

To which of your friends and family do you refer, BW?   The Hindenburg disaster was ONE HUNDRED AND FOURTEEN YEARS AGO!

 

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18 minutes ago, JohnD said:

To which of your friends and family do you refer, BW?   The Hindenburg disaster was ONE HUNDRED AND FOURTEEN YEARS AGO!

 

Clearly hobbit friends, eleventy - one wasn't that old by their standards 🧙‍♂️

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On 16/07/2021 at 16:35, DVD3500 said:

Not quite sure why batteries would be an engineering dead-end. Nokia thought they had the best mobile phones and Motorola before them. Apple showed what can be done with batteries and there are still lots of battery technology out there that could be explored.

The energy density of lithium batteries is about 300W-hrs/litre, give or take. Compare this to the energy density of petrol - 13kW-hrs/litre (13,000W-hrs/litre). While there will be incremental improvements in battery technology, so far as I know there are no game changers on the horizon. That's not to say there might not be one over the horizon, but until then the improvements will be relatively small.

13kW-hrs/l sounds good, but the infernal combustion engine is only 30% efficient, or thereabouts. Put a human behind the wheel and it's only 20%, but hybrid cleverness gets some of that back. Even so, 2.6kWhrs to 3.9kW-hrs at the wheel still makes 300W-hrs from a battery seem a bit ... meagre. And the big advantage of petrol is that you can transfer all those kW-hrs into your tank in a couple of minutes and drive 600 to 800 miles. But don't forget to pay first! Hydrogen has the same advantages of energy density and fluid transfer to the vehicle, which make it ideal for for transport applications.

If you want fast charging from a battery that means you have to be able to deliver the energy quickly. Either, you have to lay in the copper connection to the grid - and laying in copper is eye-wateringly expensive - or you have to have some form of energy storage on site - a battery in fact! On a motorway service station the battery might make sense as it will be in use most of the time. But elsewhere it's not a good financial proposition as a battery which isn't in use is not earning money for the people who bought it. None of this matters at home as charging overnight can be done at a leisurely pace. In Reading they've been building houses which have no drives, garages or parking places. The parking place was an optional extra and if you didn't buy one then that pretty much rules out a battery EV I would say.

As for Apple showing what can be done with batteries? Sealing them in to give the product an 18-month life span - that doesn't sound like a planet-saving strategy to me!

What was the comment of putting PV panels in the desert? Are we going to get the energy here by copper (expensive) or hydrogen (efficiency) by ship/pipeline?

Cheers, Richard

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Something a friend shared on Fb this morning, ok it's in French but you are all so intelligent it won't be a problem 👨‍🎓

For me the point is the production of batteries is no way green and any better for the planet than finding fossil fuel. Not only that it is simply going from one source that is in short supply to another that is just as short, or even rarer. Pure electric is going to turn out to be less than the panacea some would have us believe, yes there is a place for them but by far not the main.

217594868_2932022403720002_1285846690520142915_n.jpg.9099e08cb9a0aaf2147d83aa9bdbbabd.jpg

UNE ABERRATION !
Arrêtez d’acheter des véhicules électriques : Le Canard Enchaîné, sous la plume de Jean-Luc Porquet, publie un article au vitriol sur l'absurdité de la stratégie de la voiture électrique engagée par la France.
En ligne de mire, la voiture électrique censée être la solution d'avenir pour sauver la planète en danger.
On ne cesse de nous rabâcher que la voiture électrique, c'est la solution d'avenir et surtout la seule voie pour sauver la planète.
La sauver de quoi ?
On ne sait pas trop, mais il faut la sauver, nous serine-t-on !
À cette fin, la France s'est engouffrée tête baissée dans le tout électrique mais sans aucun discernement.
Partant, nos gouvernants ont enjoint les constructeurs automobiles de tout miser sur l'électrique. Soit !
Mais qu'est-ce que cela signifie ?
D'abord, l'installation de multiples bornes de recharge le long de nos routes, car les véhicules les plus performants à l'heure actuelle, ne peuvent prétendre à une autonomie supérieure à 500 km.
Et encore sans faire usage des phares, du chauffage, des essuie-glaces, du dégivrage ou de la climatisation...
Ensuite, cela implique la conception de batteries capables de stocker cette énergie. Et là, il faut s'attarder un instant.
À l'heure actuelle, les batteries équipant les véhicules sont très lourdes, très coûteuses et bourrées de métaux rares.
Dans celle de la Tesla Model S par exemple, la plus performante du marché, on ne trouve pas moins de 16 kg de nickel.
Or le nickel est plutôt rare sur notre terre.
Ce qui fait dire au patron de Tesla France que « le goulet d'étranglement de la transition énergétique se fera sur le nickel »
Extraction du nickel à Goro en Nouvelle Calédonie.
Il sait parfaitement que le nickel est très difficile à trouver.
Il faut aller le chercher en Indonésie ou en Nouvelle Calédonie et son extraction est une vraie galère car on ne le trouve jamais à l'état pur.
Dans les minerais, il n'existe qu'en très faible proportion .Par conséquent, il faut creuser et creuser encore, broyer, cribler, hyrocycloner pour un résultat tout juste à la hauteur des besoins.
Or tout cela entraîne de colossales montagnes de résidus que l'on déverse la plupart du temps dans la mer !
Mais qu'importe la biodiversité pour les Khmers verts qui ne jurent que par la « mobilité verte », laquelle n'a pas de prix pour eux.
Extraction du lithium en Bolivie.
Il n’y a pas que le nickel en jeu, il y a aussi le lithium.
Il en faut 15 kg par batterie (toujours pour la Tesla Model S). Celui-ci provient des hauts plateaux des Andes.
Pour l'extraire, on pompe sous les salars (lacs salés asséchés) ce qui entraîne une migration de l'eau douce vers les profondeurs.
Une catastrophe écologique selon les autochtones qui souffrent déjà du manque d'eau.
Et puis, il y a le cobalt : 10 kg par batterie qu'on va chercher au Congo.
Et là, on touche au travail des enfants qui creusent à mains nues dans des mines artisanales pour seulement 2 dollars par jour (Les Échos du 23/09/2020).
Ça gêne un peu aux entournures nos constructeurs qui, néanmoins, veulent à tout prix rattraper la Chine, déjà championne du monde dans ce secteur. Alors, le travail des enfants, ça reste un détail.
Pour couronner le tout, les batteries étant terriblement lourdes (1/4 du poids de la Tesla Model S), il faut alléger au maximum le véhicule.
On fait donc des carrosseries en aluminium dont l'extraction génère ces terribles boues rouges, déchets insolubles issus du traitement de l'alumine avec de la soude et qui sont composées de plusieurs métaux lourds tels que l'arsenic, le fer, le mercure, la silice et le titane, que l'on déverse aussi dans la mer au mépris des questions d'environnement, comme à Gardanne dans les Bouches-du-Rhône.
Voilà ce qu'est le développement « durable » selon nos écologistes. Un dogme qui ne laisse aucune place à la raison..!!
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that is in short supply to another that is just as short, or even rarer

 

The politicians say fossil fuel is in short supply - and you believe this

I was in Dubai in the late 80's and they were advertising at least 150 years for their little well in the sand.

But, this was before the Greenies and the politicians started making money out of it.

The politicians simply make it look mucky and begin banning it.

In the early 90's car engine developers were getting to grips with a supper lean burn petrol engine - Why, because the politicians asked them.

Before it was launched the politicians could see more money for their pockets in diesel so stopped the lean burn and promoted dirty diesel.

And now the goal posts move again to even dirtier electric. - their pockets must be full to bursting point.

Cynical, Moi 

Roger

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25 minutes ago, RogerH said:

Before it was launched the politicians could see more money for their pockets in diesel

Her diesel was pushed by the politicians, including lower taxes on it(even today it is cheaper than petrol) as there was a big surplus.

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Yes, Back when, Our company cars where swapped out for Diesel Ones. Diesel was 10p? a litre cheaper than Petrol, and we got more MPG. Win-Win for the corporate bean counters, my loss was in  no longer being able to fill the bike on the Co Fuel Card, on the ocasions when I used it for "work related" journeys, Like B-S meetings in London and later Bristol.😭

Pete

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I have no expertise but a chemist client of mine thought that electricity was a dead end but synthetic petrol would be the future with the nasty greenhouse heating by products removed.  Not really sure what she meant but she was pretty bullish about it.  Perhaps someone on here has more expertise in this area?

What I do find ridiculous Is that a £100k plus Range Rover that can do 0-60 sub 6 seconds and weighs in at a couple of tons, is full packed with plastics and unnecessary electrical items etc etc, gets massive tax breaks (100% up front capital allowances and a 1-2% benefit in kind for the highly paid director who drives it) and in carbon footprint print terms, it must be far far worse than a 1960s mini.. yes electric is the future……. 
Bob 

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1 hour ago, Anglefire said:

That was a bit flamey. 🤪

What got me was people just siting there waiting, me I'd have been backing up the hard shoulder as fast as reverse gear would allow 💣

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17 hours ago, Chris A said:

For me the point is the production of batteries is no way green and any better for the planet than finding fossil fuel.

YES! YES! YES! They rape our women!

EVs drivers get divorced more often and they are known to have RUN OVER ANIMALS!!!

The damn things have cause teenager girls to become pregnant AND they caused COVID!!!!

Seriously....

Do some objective research. It has been shown time and time again:

Yes. an EV has an environmental "backpack" that means as it arrives in the show room it has made a bigger "impact" than a comparable ICE car.

BUT

Within 30 to 60 thousand miles (faster if you use renewable energy) it will start having a positive affect on the environment.

Most of that data is already over 5 years old and recycling of batteries uses 80-90% of the material, plus long term studies are coming in and batteries are lasting a lot longer than originally predicted.

Finally, battery production has become greener so if a study were done today I would not be surprised if the rate had dropped to 20-30 thousand miles.

Please please stop blindly forwarding "information" without looking at studies and reading them all the way through.

We all have an interest in mechanics and engineering here. If you read a headline "People killed even though they were wearing seatbelts!!!" would you then believe it is useless to wear seatbelts?

Nothing is perfect. EVs aren't, hydrogen isn't, ICEs aren't either.

Claiming that EVs are worse than ICEs are is ABSOLUTELY TRUE... for about a year into its life and then for the rest of its usable life it simply isn't...

 

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1 hour ago, Chris A said:

What got me was people just siting there waiting, me I'd have been backing up the hard shoulder as fast as reverse gear would allow 💣

And blocking access for the emergency services?

In Germany it is the law that when a motorway is blocked, drivers must move aside in their lane, to leave an access corridor, even if there is a hard shoulder.   The lack of such a law in the UK is another reason for "smart" motorwyas being so dangerous.

John

 

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24 minutes ago, DVD3500 said:

Please please stop blindly forwarding "information" without looking at studies and reading them all the way through.

But isn't that exactly what you have just done? Where are the links to the research and studies that back up your claims. I'm Sorry but I still believe point at which an EV is actually greener is a lot longer than you say. Every time you charge one you are actually creating pollution, there isn't that much green electricity being produced.

Germany, I believe, has decided not to use nuclear to generate it but isn't a large part still generated by coal ? And if I am correct Germany buys power from France - which is over 75% nuclear.

I may be totally wrong on the above but an more than happy to be corrected

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Chris, you don't know me. So I can accept that you would make a statement that I am doing the same thing. However, if we were to sit together over some wine, cheese and sausage you would know I that I do not make such statements lightly. I am "agnostic" about ANYTHING until I do my research and when it comes down to a "he said, she said" type argument I experiment myself (trunnions... oil... grease... errrrr... I'll test it myself!!!")

All the studies are linked here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_aspects_of_the_electric_car#Advantages_and_disadvantages_compared_to_fossil_fuelled_cars

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_aspects_of_the_electric_car#Environmental_impact_of_manufacturing

I have read nearly everyone one of them (if I speak the language...) and I even crossed and fact checked. Often the Wikipedia links to sites that link to reports that link to the actual study... so I also  looked at other sources and looked into studies not mentioned in wikipedia and while the numbers vary, it always comes to the same conclusion:

EVs have the "backpack" but things get better quickly...

BTW: the oft quoted ADAC "study" from 2018 has been removed. Officially because they said it is just too old but it might also be while they used very up-to-date info on ICE car manufacturing, they used EV data that was from 2011 and 2012 and an energy mix from 2013 at a time when Germany was 20% less "green" than in 2018. When you add in that they could not verify that their data from VW was.... accurate... they had to pull it...

As a non-European I have no voting rights and thanks to ancient laws even my vote doesn't usually count in my home country but yes, Germany has a totally asinine approach to energy. They knee-jerked out of nuclear because of Fukishima and then fired up brown (!) coal plants.  Also if you produce too much solar power you get penalized because the main energy companies say they need to keep things stable... the only thing stable I see are their dividends and profits... 

I know the founder of Octopus Energy personally. We worked for almost 4 years together. He told me the German energy market is harder to crack than getting into Fort Knox...

I find this chart interesting:

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts

While we see Germany is not as green as could be we also see that while GDP is growing power consumption is not (or at least not as much).

I am not saying that anyone's opinion is wrong. In fact, I am saying you are right: Yes, EVs ARE worse... for the first year or so...

Guys, don't get me wrong. My first car was a '76 Pontiac Trans Am with 6.6 liter motor and really really really hope that ICEs can exist for my lifetime (given most men in my family die at 65-67 that shouldn't be too hard...).

I hope our cars survive E10, synthetic fuels and the like.

For the masses though other solutions need to be explored in a rational, objective way...

 

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On 17/07/2021 at 12:23, Badwolf said:

To those of a certain age hydrogen brings up the thoughts, rightly or wrongly, of the airship disasters and the fires which destroyed them and took so many lives, when the hydrogen ignited. 

I'm not sure anyone is proposing just chucking rubber bladers in the boot, optionally wrapped in Thermite.

16 hours ago, JohnD said:

Above, it was pointed out that hydrogen is an explosive gas, and the Hindenburg Distaster cited.

This happened two days ago, on the M11:

https://www.facebook.com/neilgossage/videos/886127245444672

So THAT'S what closed the M11 on Sat (thankfully closed from the turnoff I wanted anyway).

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Not going to join the EV versus ICE disagreement.

As I understand it a law was passed saying that ICE cars had to be fitted with a catalytic converter rather than that they must meet certain polluting standards therefore stifling alternative solutions. Surely it would be better to say that a vehicle had to meet certain lifetime standards and it didn't matter how it was done.

Or is this to simple?.

Regards

Paul.

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1 hour ago, DVD3500 said:

However, if we were to sit together over some wine, cheese and sausage

As long as it is saucisson and not wurst, the wine can be from anywhere (as long as there is alcohol in it) as for cheese - the stronger the better 😁

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The only Wurst worth its weight in Euro is the Thüringer Bratwurst... otherwise I am Francophile so I am with you on the saucisson !

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

In Germany it is the law that when a motorway is blocked, drivers must move aside in their lane, to leave an access corridor, even if there is a hard shoulder.   The lack of such a law in the UK is another reason for "smart" motorwyas being so dangerous.

Yes... and time and time again it is ignored... truck drivers in particular refuse to move. I was in a jam once and further up the road they arrested a truck driver for spitting on the police for asking him to move (yes, during covid...!).

One guy followed the police through this lane in his Mercedes AMG... he was surprised when they stopped him!

They raised the fines on that recently so I am sure that will make a difference....🤪

 

 

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3 hours ago, 68vitesse said:

As I understand it a law was passed saying that ICE cars had to be fitted with a catalytic converter rather than that they must meet certain polluting standards therefore stifling alternative solutions. Surely it would be better to say that a vehicle had to meet certain lifetime standards and it didn't matter how it was done.

Or is this to simple?.

Probably came about when someone political asked the car producing lobby about how to reduce pollution. Their reply would have been based on what they could do quickly, cheap to produce and least disruption to their manufacturing chain. :rolleyes:

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