Herald second latch not holding

[A TR7 16V]

I've got a bit of a problem with the passenger door (mostly) on the Herald looking like it's shut properly, but coming open on corners, unless it's been well slammed shut. If it is, then it's fine. But when it's not slammed enough, it looks and feels shut till there's enough g on it, when it just opens. 

Obvs. I've tried adjusting the door and striker plate - I would try a new striker if I could get and knew how to deal with the "spring not included" aspect. But I'm not too clear on how it should be set so the door holds on the second latch, or if the problem is wear.

So, what reasons are there for the second latch not holding at all and for the fact that the door looks to be shut the same, but if it wasn't slammed hard enough, it will spring open? And, perhaps more importantly, what's the solution?

BTW, this don't seem to be affected by whether the hood is up or down.

Graham

[Pete Lewis]

the striker may just need to be moved more outboard so the cam rolls fully into the striker 

the sprung wedge  is to stop any door movements lifting the cam out and over the striker so its important it works /slides easy 

do make sure the remote rod from the inside handle is not set to make tension  the inside handle is on slotted holes to allow adjustment to 

make sure its not holding the cam lock partly open 

same applies to the external  push button must have a few mm end float between the button tappet screw and the lock lever 

and oil all the lock mechanism 

Pete

 

[Peter Truman]

Make sure the wedge can slide easily and oil, number of times I've seen members here slamming doors because the wedge is seized.

[A TR7 16V]

I'll look at the position of the striker (again) and the wedge later today. If the visit from the Washing machine engineer goes to plan. 

But I've got a couple of questions still: Is whatever the setscrews through the striker go into captive or do I need to take care it don't fall anywhere inaccessible; and is the angle the striker sits at critical - I've moved the engagement up down, in out (and done the Hokey Cokey), and it's not seemed to make a difference other than how much the door rattles when the latch is properly engaged. But I've got thinner door seal rubbers on (maybe I should have said before), because the ones I was sold as genuine seemed  over thick and made the problem worse - to the point where the kids couldn't get it to shut properly at all.

Graham

[Pete Lewis]

the orig seals were a single flip not a balloon tube as most sell    awful stuff  some makes the door shut impossible 

the b post striker screws go into a cadged nut plate  which cannot fall out of place when the screws are removed 

Pete

[68vitesse]

15 hours ago, A TR7 16V said:

BTW, this don't seem to be affected by whether the hood is up or down.

Do you have the anti-lift catches fitted, only used on convertibles.

Regards

Paul.

 

[A TR7 16V]

Ta for the bit on the nuts being caged. 

It does have the anti-burst catches on the passenger door, which is the problem one. I have yet to fit the one I have on the driver's, which a PO fitted off a hard top, so drilling will need a bit of guessing. But the driver seems to be able to shut that door successfully enough.

Graham

[A TR7 16V]

Well I've had a bit of a look at what's up and the possible solutions.

The spring wedge is free, maybe even a bit slack. But the striker plate is quite worn where it engages with the surround to the door lock. It looks like it's just been the door's been hung too low for too long and has worn a rebate all along the front top edge of the striker plate. 

So it looks like the the proper solution is either a new plate, which appear to be unavailable, or to shorten the gap between the A and B posts by about several mm, so a less worn part of the striker is in the door latch plate. However, I assume that will have a bit of an impact on how the hood fits. Also, While the door shut ain't great, I didn't think it was that bad on a Herald.

I have, for now, made it better with more washers behind the striker plate. I'm not sure there should be any, as there are none on the drivers side. But it now holds on the second latch for a good pulling at, and I can get it so it seems to hold properly for being able to push the door closed with a good shove, not a slam. But despite there seems to be plenty of thread still into the holes in the mounting, I don't like it. 

Graham

[Steve P]

All the door problems on my Herald and Vitesse have been down to gummed up parts,but that door gap looks weird,what is going on with the Bow in the middle?.

Is it just the picture or does the door bottom go inboard of the post?.

Has it had new panels or repairs?.

Steve 

[A TR7 16V]

I think the apparent bow is the angle the picture is taken from.  Also, the door sticks out at the bottom. And that's adding to making the gap look like it narrows when, in fact, it gets slightly bigger when seen from side on. I've tried moving in at the bottom and out at the top on the hinges, but have had no success. I think I need to find the right shaped tree and open the door against it a few times.

I think it's had several replacement panels, but I doubt any of them were exactly new.

Graham

[Steve P]

What is  the gap like on the front quaterlight to the windscreen frame?.

Steve

[Pete Lewis]

washers or extra grip gaskets to space the striker is not nice but it happens 

doors sticking out at the bottom is often down to tub spread ,no hinge adjustment solves this 

there are  a good few posts on here about tub spread 

where you pull the top of the B post wing inwards quite a lot to spring back to a better flush fit 

from memory i seem to remember 46.5" across the body B post top  of wing   seal flanges 

if you feel this is whats going on we can give more clues 

Pete

[A TR7 16V]

Heres the door gaps from side on - no refs to Bremner's "N-N-Nineteen Not Out" please.

I think, if I bothered, I could get the door up a little more at the fore, to make the gaps a little more constant. But, that would need me to be bothered.

And here the door sticking out at the bottom. 

This bothers me more than the gaps tapering.

This is the gap by the quarterlight.

 

I'm not sure what I'm looking for, so it may not show it.

And here's the gap at the back of the drivers door. I can't get back far enough to do better without turning the car around:

The fit between the back of the door window and the seal on the hood is made right by packing between the frame and where the hood goes round. It's thin at the top of the wing, but about 3/4" thick as it starts the curve round to horizontal. It's just made of poly foam, and long M2 bolts with extra nuts as standoffs holding the seal runners. I'm a bit surprised the foam is holding up three years after I did the hood. But it is.

I know I didn't get the hood pulled down enough at the tops of the B posts, but I found doing the pop rivets there a real difficult bit. So, after a bit, I just went that'll effing do, and went in for tea. I have considered re-doing them, but I have a solution to stop it leaking, so I haven't felt the need.

I shall go next and take measurements between the B post tops. 

[A TR7 16V]

The distance I measure between the outsides of the flanges at the tops of the B posts is 48 & 9/16th in.

Two inches sounds like a very big error. The bottom of the door is out by no more than 1/2".

Graham

[Pete Lewis]

as i said its a long time ago and the 46.5 was a memory retrieval     thats not cast in stone

there are various ideas to pull the wing tops inwards you do have to really over pulland it will spring back 

the clue is its not the door thats proud its the  B post has decided to angle itself as you pull in the door becomes flush 

guys use anything from ratchet straps  over the wing tops to studding and some frame works 

pete

[A TR7 16V]

Yes, I see how that one B post being off line vertically will cause the effect on the door bottom. But I'm not sure I'm bothered enough to do very much. I guess the trick would be to pull the top of the left B post down towards a point on the right side level with the chassis, not to the top of other B post, as that's near enough. The question then is where is strong enough over on the right side of the floor and where I can attach ratchet straps - I'm certainly not cutting new holes to do the job. Is the seat belt anchor like to be up to the job? And what do I pull on at the top of the B post - the hood attachment? If I wrap a strap down the outside of the left B post, underneath the chassis, and back through the right door hole to the top of the left B post, will the post bend before the sill collapses?

The other question is, what effect on the hood will there be from moving the left B post top 1/2" nearer the right B post top? 

I take it there's no mileage in trying to twist the door. 2 bricks under top rear and bottom front and a couple of fullbacks one on each of the other corners? If they wear slippers they mightn't scratch the paint too bad.

Graham

[Pete Lewis]

if you use a strap you must support/protect the sill its a weak part 

many have tried to reset the door , in most production lines a guy with a large wooden bat will jam and bend the doors to get a fit 

doors can deform profile if they have been reskinned   

all avenues are worth some homework 

a converible takes more effort to pull the wing tops in as the rear deck is deeper than a saloon 

one other indicator is the width for the boot lid fit , if its gone a bit tight ,its the tub not the door due to as the front goes wide the tail closes up 

it can trap some boot lids in bad cases 

knowone has any defined clues about why this spread occurs   , lots of myths no facts 

Pete

 

[A TR7 16V]

I've had a look at the boot lid fitting and that looks very good, at least in comparison with all the other closures.

So if the measure across the B posts should be 48.5 not 46.5, maybe the problem is in the door.

I shall see if there's any give with a wedge in the top, and a push on the bottom rear corner, but I don't anticipate that being enough. Possibly a very large, door cross-section shaped, wooden C spanner? Sounds like a chainsaw carving job. I do expect to replace the doors at some point - if they haven't been lost as a result of me not doing anything for lockdown -, so it might be worth trying with the old one.

Graham

[Paul H]

12 hours ago, A TR7 16V said:

Heres the door gaps from side on - no refs to Bremner's "N-N-Nineteen Not Out" please.

I think, if I bothered, I could get the door up a little more at the fore, to make the gaps a little more constant. But, that would need me to be bothered.

And here the door sticking out at the bottom. 

This bothers me more than the gaps tapering.

This is the gap by the quarterlight.

 

I'm not sure what I'm looking for, so it may not show it.

And here's the gap at the back of the drivers door. I can't get back far enough to do better without turning the car around:

The fit between the back of the door window and the seal on the hood is made right by packing between the frame and where the hood goes round. It's thin at the top of the wing, but about 3/4" thick as it starts the curve round to horizontal. It's just made of poly foam, and long M2 bolts with extra nuts as standoffs holding the seal runners. I'm a bit surprised the foam is holding up three years after I did the hood. But it is.

I know I didn't get the hood pulled down enough at the tops of the B posts, but I found doing the pop rivets there a real difficult bit. So, after a bit, I just went that'll effing do, and went in for tea. I have considered re-doing them, but I have a solution to stop it leaking, so I haven't felt the need.

I shall go next and take measurements between the B post tops. 

The V ie larger gap at the top could be excess packing between the chassis and the tub . My Vitesse was an inverted V and improved the gap by adding shims .

Paul 

[A TR7 16V]

I think the front of the right rear wing is high. Last time I was able, I did try looking to see where the tub bolts to the chassis there, but I can't see were it is it to see if there's packing between them that might remove. 

If anyone has a picture of where that mounting is, I should have a chance in the next week or two to have a good look.

Graham

[Pete Lewis]

body mounts  there are 4 down each side rail  two for front tub  two for rear tub ( one at the siderail/outrigger front and rear ) others mid spaced down the side rail)

then one each side of the diff (inside the boot raised hump)

and a two bolt fixing on the boot rear ouriggers (in boot  rear  corners )

shoulld have one rubber pad and as much solid washer etc to pack up levels 

the two on the diff xmamber will be an alloy not rubber 

as is the front mounts on the front tub( in the engine bay)

Pete

[A TR7 16V]

Going back to the issue of the striker plate and the LH ones not being available new at the moment, I was wondering if there's any possibility of repairing one?

I was thinking that it may be possible to file one down uniformly, and use countersunk blind rivets to hold a repair plate on the surface. I assume this would have to be aluminium as well. That's because I assume the striker plate is meant to wear sacrificially, cos it's a shed load easier to replace than the lock plate.

I wonder if a 3x10mm plate is thick enough. Maybe 4mm is available and bends easy enough. Put the rivets as close to the B post as possible so they wear least. 

Anybody got any knackered ones for some experimentation?

The other Q is whether there's any 3D printable material that would be hard enough to replicate the whole thing?

Graham

 

 

 

[Pete Lewis]

I have a spare pair lh and Rh    both have some wear on the top face not as much as yours but they do have sliders 

pete

[A TR7 16V]

38 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

I have a spare pair lh and Rh    both have some wear on the top face not as much as yours but they do have sliders 

pete

It would be nice to fix one that's not got any life left in it really, i.e. one that's well worn on the top surface. So if you think yours are worth using as they are, I think you should hang on to them.

 

[Pete Lewis]

ok