Electrical or Fuel issue

[Paul H]

Hi travelled up to the Wirral today from Suffolk 230 miles in my Mk2 Vitesse. Longest straight run for a while. Everything went fine unless I went over 3300 revs then the engine misfires . Doesn’t happen every time but more often than not . Bring the revs down and the engine behaves . Same issue happened on the return from Duxford last Sunday . With overdrive the speedo is wavering 55 to 60 at 3000 revs . The issue could be fuel but all filters are clear and running a Huco electric pump . This leaves electrics with Accuspark electronics and near new Delco distributor , NGKs . I’ve got a good selection of spares to work through and could it even need to retard the ignition a tad . Where should I start ? 

If your planning a trip make sure you know the stations which sell E5 Premium enroute as finding E5 was difficult . Good job I had a can in the boot . 

Next Sunday 26th going to Walled Towns rally in North Wales . Any other takers ? 

Paul

 

 

[JohnD]

Do you have a stroboscopic ignition test light?    Something like this:  

 

Not only will it show the actual ignition timing (beware the sort that you can preset the advance on!) but vacuume and cebtrifugal advance.    Failure of ignition at a certain speed too.

OR, plug testers: 

Look for a set of 6!  You can SEE if the plugs are firing or not.

Good luck!

John

[Paul H]

Hi John got both . With the spark rite I assume I test at 3000 plus . The strobe is a basic version 

Paul

 

[Pete Lewis]

whos electronic ign  is it  ??

is this a general drop in power or a big hic up and cough   missfire 

a plug breaking down occurs when the pressure is on

have you   tried a 1/2 turn richer ??

Pete

 

[Paul H]

Hi Pete , no big hic up or cough . Feels like a slight misfire which would get worse if with more pedal . After Duxford I checked the plugs and they were a tad rich so weakened the mixture by 1/4 turn . CDSE’s 

ignition is Accuspark 

Paul 

[JohnD]

Electronic ignition, even the halfway type of a sensor in the distributor, should be most reliable.

Fit the plug sensors, run the engine, rev it past the point where it misses.   Observe the sensors, any sign of missing?  If so,   check low voltage circuit with a multimeter or just a bulb while you do the same.

  With the strobe, do the same, watch the pulley, does it advance as it should?  If not the centrifugal mechanism in doubt.

Good luck,

John

[Paul H]

It’s been raining most of the day so haven’t been able to check the plugs with the strobe or sparkrite . A break in the rain allowed me to check the plugs and dizzy 

Plug no 4 was oiled more than the others . The dizzy cap had small specks of of black dust on the inside 

Any initial thoughts 

Paul

 

 

 

[Pete Lewis]

looks a tad rich   and make sure the sprung rotor top contact actually touches the carbon centre brush  

arching makes me think you have a gap and the spark jump makes the carbon  debris in the cap as it erodes the brush

is the brush all a bit knarled this shows theres is a gap    

Pete

[Badwolf]

Pete normally has a go about rivetted rotor arms as well!!

[Chris A]

4 minutes ago, Badwolf said:

Pete normally has a go about rivetted rotor arms as well!!

And that they are red ones . . .

[Pete Lewis]

only the lucas ones   delco types dont seem to suffer from the rivet earthing to the spindle 

i have a 1500 Spitty locally that dies on the drive you faf and fiddle end up changing the condenser when you find its been backfiring its on its 3rd orange wired one and that lasted 3 miles like between luton and barton theres a force field makes it cough and die , leaves here like clockwork and 3 miles down the road gives an expletive gasp and dies 

began to think the electronic revcounter was interfering but disconnection didnt help  just fitted a yellow wired condenser from Dizzy doc  and again runs like dream imeadiate recovery

i dont know it this has lasted as yet 

weve known about oranged wired condensers but this is getting daft   doesnt help Paul H though  

extract 

 

[Badwolf]

5 minutes ago, Chris A said:

And that they are red ones . . .

Yes, forgot about that. I have an unrivetted red one on the Spitfire. No problems with it (Until now..as the kiss of death kicks in). You see Pete, someone does listen to you.

[Iain T]

when I had my Vitesse rolling road tested the guy said it had a misfire at high revs (higher than I normally go). He tracked it to the rotor arm and replaced it with a red one and all was apparently fixed.

[Colin Lindsay]

1 minute ago, Iain T said:

when I had my Vitesse rolling road tested the guy said it had a misfire at high revs (higher than I normally go). He tracked it to the rotor arm and replaced it with a red one and all was apparently fixed.

Must try that as a simple fix; I've got a regular misfire on the newest Herald at idle and whilst I can going to add electronic ignition fairly soon I've a few red rotor arms in the drawer, so must try one.

[Iain T]

4 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Must try that as a simple fix;

I had a senior moment yesterday. I took the car out for a successful high speed run to check out mixture and when I returned had a quick peak in the engine bay to make sure all was well and I had forgotten to fit the vacuum hose onto the front carb. I suppose another blast up the road is now in order!

Any excuse......

[Pete Lewis]

there is nothing wrong with the olde genuine Lucas rotors 

its the naf ebay and aftermarket copies with a rivet  where the rivet is so close to the centre the spark takes a short cut and earths via the cam spindle   

i have not found any delco with a problem    being a slightly different design.

and to add   a good few failures were due to 1.5 ballast coils being bypassed to full 12v and the much higher current and   HT  burnt points out  blew condensers and the HT failed rotors and dizzy caps 

its never  straight forward that it just the rotor 

Pete  

 

[NonMember]

On 18/09/2021 at 20:54, JohnD said:

Electronic ignition, even the halfway type of a sensor in the distributor, should be most reliable.

That would be nice if it were true. While I agree that EI should be reliable, it often isn't. There was a Vitesse at the start of an RBRR (quite some years back now) which ran beautifully up to 3000 RPM then just stopped. That was a fault on the Lumenition box, and swapping it to points got him running properly.

[Colin Lindsay]

I must admit, I've seen more cars switch to EI due to poor running points - possibly more often than not due to incorrect adjustment or worn parts - than ever switched back again. It comes down to whatever a particular owner prefers, especially in light of sub-standard versions of both currently on the market.

[Paul H]

Hopefully might have found the issue the positive terminal on the coil was loose . Check out the video . I have corrected this and cleaned up the rotor and weakened the mixture by 1/4 turn . Off for fuel and short test to see if she will behave. The only explanation for the wobbly spade is that the cable is routed and cable tied and perhaps too restrictive so with engine movement the spade got too much pressure 

Paul 

 

 

[Paul H]

2 hours ago, Paul H said:

Hopefully might have found the issue the positive terminal on the coil was loose . Check out the video . I have corrected this and cleaned up the rotor and weakened the mixture by 1/4 turn . Off for fuel and short test to see if she will behave. The only explanation for the wobbly spade is that the cable is routed and cable tied and perhaps too restrictive so with engine movement the spade got too much pressure 

Paul 

 

 

 

Short test drive and all good . Need to go on a long run which will probably be Sunday with the 5 Walled Towns in North Wales . Fuel consumption is 29 mpg which is what I would expect on a long run . Looking at the wobbly spade it’s surprising I travelled as far as i did 😱

Paul 

[Bob Horner]

Hopefully you’ve sorted it.  However I had a similar issue, assumed electrical but in the end turned out to be restricted fuel flow near tank.  Fine in normal driving but on a motorway with sustained revs the float chambers couldn’t fill fast enough and it was running out if fuel.  Seemed like an intermittent electrical issue as went away off motorway but wasn’t.   Tank out and some replacement hoses. Fuel filters all looked fine - no bits and all full by the time I’d got back to the garage after a few runs when thought it was sorted. 
Bob 

[Peter Truman]

Bob a friend had a similar fuel problem the electric fuel pump on his Stag wasn't performing, bigger replacement fixed it, well he did have a Leyland 4.4ltr in there! 

[Clive]

On 18/09/2021 at 17:57, Paul H said:

Hi travelled up to the Wirral today from Suffolk 230 miles in my Mk2 Vitesse. Longest straight run for a while. Everything went fine unless I went over 3300 revs then the engine misfires . Doesn’t happen every time but more often than not . Bring the revs down and the engine behaves . Same issue happened on the return from Duxford last Sunday . With overdrive the speedo is wavering 55 to 60 at 3000 revs . The issue could be fuel but all filters are clear and running a Huco electric pump . This leaves electrics with Accuspark electronics and near new Delco distributor , NGKs . I’ve got a good selection of spares to work through and could it even need to retard the ignition a tad . Where should I start ? 
 

 

 

You say a near new distributor. Is that a genuine NOS one or a brand new repro item? I know of a repro one from teh club shop that had very similar issues, refitting the old worn one fixed the issue and the new one was returned. Not heard what happened next (this was early last year, just before everything went pear shaped)

Likewise, a mate popped over yesterday with his Stag. It was misfiring over 3k. He had done everything. Now EI, coil, plugs, checked fuel pump, new filters.  The new coil was gold, a Lucas sports coil. I suggested he borrowed my 1994 Lucas sports coil, temp fixed in place. Cured the issue straight off. The brand new one even looked poorly made/pressed, and was very hot after a 5 minute test drive.

The moral here is to avoid crap repro stuff, not always easy. Any new Lucas stuff is often garbage. Said mate has ordered a new Bosch coil, and is taking mine as back up for the RBRR this weekend. 

[Paul H]

Completed the Wall Towns Run in North Wales yesterday . Stunning scenery . Since tidying up the wiring on the coil 😱. my Vitesse is behaving and 150 mile trip went fine . I can now Rev past the 3k mark and looking at the issue totally surprised I got as far as I did . Now need to get back to Suffolk and more fuel needed before I leave . All local stations are empty . Hopefully they will get the deliveries scheduled for today . I’m working on the theory the numpties can only fill up once . If Im wrong might take a few more days before I can leave . 
Paul 

[Paul H]

On 18/09/2021 at 17:57, Paul H said:

Hi travelled up to the Wirral today from Suffolk 230 miles in my Mk2 Vitesse. Longest straight run for a while. Everything went fine unless I went over 3300 revs then the engine misfires . Doesn’t happen every time but more often than not . Bring the revs down and the engine behaves . Same issue happened on the return from Duxford last Sunday . With overdrive the speedo is wavering 55 to 60 at 3000 revs . The issue could be fuel but all filters are clear and running a Huco electric pump . This leaves electrics with Accuspark electronics and near new Delco distributor , NGKs . I’ve got a good selection of spares to work through and could it even need to retard the ignition a tad . Where should I start ? 

If your planning a trip make sure you know the stations which sell E5 Premium enroute as finding E5 was difficult . Good job I had a can in the boot . 

Next Sunday 26th going to Walled Towns rally in North Wales . Any other takers ? 

Paul

 

 

Here’s a pic of my Vitesse on the Walled Towns Run in North Wales on Sunday 

Paul