Fitted Length of Propshaft.

[Wagger]

This is not urgent but, if any of you have a Mk1 2 litre Vitesse without overdrive I would like to know what the length of your propshaft is when fitted. I measured mine two sides and bottom with a steel tape ty-wrapped to the prop over the flanges then subtracted the two flange thicknesses as it was easier that way than 'Seeing' the join (to quote Eric Morecombe).

Mine is bang on the fitted length in all factory manuals but the car has 'Grown' as it has aged by 1/2 to 3/4 inch. There is evidence of a rear end 'Shunt' but I cannot find any 'Cut and shut' joins. I know that the body can be 'Adjusted' but the chassis cannot be unless sections have been replaced inaccurately.

Measuring the chassis datum points front to rear is very tedious and nigh on impossible without moving the car. It needs two to four plumb lines and a long reach. Then, one cannot be sure to have marked the spot accurately.

 

[Stratton Jimmer]

I can't help with a Vitesse but when measuring very accurate distances in flight simulators for setting up visuals etc, we always used a laser measure. A couple of plumb lines with suitable 'targets' on them should enable you to measure the chassis accurately and relatively easily.

[trigolf]

If it's been in a bash it's just possible its had new boot riggers welded on to the remains of the previous welds so increasing the chassis length slightly? Just a thought.

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, Wagger said:

Mine is bang on the fitted length in all factory manuals but the car has 'Grown' as it has aged by 1/2 to 3/4 inch.

You mean the propshaft is now longer, or the car?

If the bulkhead is in the correct place, and the door gaps are correct then the tub cannot be any longer than it's meant to be without the joints and gaps being very obvious. 1/2 to 3/4 is a very visible gap to try to hide with door or bonnet gaps.

The diff support area of the chassis can't be moved in relation to the body without again being very obvious in other places; have a look at the two mounting points on top of the leaf spring tunnel and see where the bolts are in relation to the floor, and again the same with the boot outrigger mountings in the boot floor. Sighting along the leaf spring tunnel will tell you if it's not central or bent at an angle. Then check the rear tub side mountings on the chassis and see if they've been altered any.

Perhaps the gearbox has been incorrectly fitted - look at the bobbins and see if they're distorted, for example, or in incorrect slots on the mounting plate.

[Pete Lewis]

boot outriggers wont affect the prop length 

the only way to get this dimension wrong i would check the engine mounts are on the front of the turret 

get it wrong side and as colin says distorted bobbins  show this up , you can do what you like with the body fits it has no bearing on the transmission in chassis positions 

and tape measure is also upset by the angle of the prop run  easy to gain loose1/2" between flanges 

Pete

[Wagger]

Sorry guys, we have been through all of this before in other threads. I cannot fit the engine in front of the Turrets because the prop will not reach. I  have measured the prop length at three different points. They are all within 2mm.

I want somebody to measure theirs for comparison. My prop is mid spline, as it should be.

I have a flat smooth garage floor and can see no other way now other than checking with plumb lines dangling where I can reach them and checking against the manual.

I cannot do the impossible here and fit the engine where it should be if the prop won't reach. The back end is all where it should be. I checked all of that when doing the rear shafts.

Gearbox is the last GT6 3 rail one on the 2500cc engine. If the engine to gearbox distance is shorter than standard, that would explain a lot.

The annoying thing really is that it all works ok. Drive fine with no nasty noises. Some of it looks like a bodge, but other bits show great thought and planning by somebody now dead. Great shame.

 

[Pete Lewis]

getting back the the base problem  

is you current prop too short or too long  the cars dont grow with age  you say the chassis looks original  so where s the grow lines ???

what problem are you getting as GT6 late three rail and a 2500 engine has same backplate position and gearbox length as every other 2 ltr  

having the mounts on the rear of the turret would make the need for a shorter prop operating length  

Pete

 

[NonMember]

Is it possible the engine mount brackets have been fitted to the block on the wrong sides? I can't remember how much difference it makes but looking at photos from my Vitesse engine rebuild they look slightly asymmetrical.

[Wagger]

I am going to close this post soon because I am not being understood. The propshaft is bang on the fitted length for a non overdrive Mk1  2L Vitesse according the the Factory issued GT6 and Vitesse Manual. Compressed it is bang on too. If I move the engine in front of the turrets the spline does not allow it to reach, I have tried it! The prop is mid spline as stated before. It is not being stretched or compressed.

None of the rubber mounts are under any strain now because I adjusted the gearbox mounting plate which has several holes in it because the car was, originally, built with an overdrive. I cannot account for the reason why one previous owner removed it. It is in the spares box minus the adapter plate. No gearbox output shaft either, I have done this all before too, in 1974 when kits were available (How I wish).

There must be a different set of flanges fitted or some change made somewhere. I am not going to worry myself about it any more. It works and is drive-able. Life is too short to worry about every imperfection. It is now time to use and enjoy it before I become incapable of doing so.

The engine is clear of steering rack, Carbs and Top Hose without need for sump bashing. It will foul everywhere if moved forward. Maybe one of the previous owners knew what he was doing. Did try finding them but their 'Use by' dates had expired.

My policy now will be 'If it ain't broken, why fix it?'

[johny]

Talking of flanges, I believe the gearbox output drive flanges are different from OD and non OD gearboxes but dont know if theyre interchangeable. If they werent the same length it could change the position of the engine/box while leaving the prop correct. Has your flange got the integral dust shield welded to it that covers the gearbox end oilseal?

[Colin Lindsay]

11 hours ago, Wagger said:

I am going to close this post soon because I am not being understood.

I'm sorry for being dim, or not helping as I could, but I don't understand the problem at all. If you reckon the propshaft is too short, given the modifications from standard on your car, then the solution is a longer propshaft, or else a deeper flange, either at the diff or gearbox. You must admit, it's confusing when you talk about the car being stretched or accident damage at the rear, it puts things off at a complete tangent, so it's not entirely our fault.

Am I right that you have a 2500 engine fitted behind the turrets, and an overdrive gearbox that has been converted back to non overdrive, plus a standard diff, and you reckon that something along the line is too short and is stretching the propshaft? Measure the distance from the gearbox flange to the diff flange and we'll see what propshafts might work without stressing them; you may need to get a bit set into one to increase the length.

[trigolf]

You need a longer gbox flange. I had this problem with my conversion to a jtype od and HD prop, which was supplied as specified measured fitted length ( by me incorrectly, ahem). Swapping for a slightly longer output flange brought the sliding joint back to mid posn. I'm not sure if gbox and od flanges are interchangeable, but worth a try?

 

Gav

[JohnD]

Not sure about a "longer gearbox output flange?    "Thicker"

Equally a spacer between the original and the propshaft flanges, and of course longer bolts, will do the trick.

If your Q is still, has my car stretched, I've no idea!   Again, careful measurement from fixed points will tell you, but I think you rejected that in your OP.

John

[Pete Lewis]

gearbox rear flanges do change  i dont know the dimensional variance  Vit mk2 Gt6mkI /II  144690       and   GT6mkIII  155755   ( non OD 3 rails )

and engine mounting Brkts are certainly Handed with different offsets 

and i fully agree with Colins summary   about just what is going on   sorry its just not been clear to us regulars , maybe the crystal ball is going cloudy 

dont walk away we can only help with clear facts , theres a lot of words but few clues    sorry we cant help we like to try as best we can 

 

Pete

 

[Wagger]

Apologies for confusing everyone. I will measure the chassis points one day. Its a bit of a grotty task when od and not 100% well.

[Pete Lewis]

theres a good few of us have those  you know  

i didnt check diff couplings as they vary as well ,mostly  with bolt sizes and solid /collapsible pre load spacers , whether they change in overall length i dont know 

but if both are from wrong model mix then you might gain a change in operating lengths 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

22 minutes ago, Wagger said:

Apologies for confusing everyone. I will measure the chassis points one day. Its a bit of a grotty task when od and not 100% well.

Have you measured the distance between the diff flange and the gearbox flange? Apologies if you have already, can you confirm it in this post? That will let us know exactly how much of a gap there is to make up. If it's not a massive amount a simple spacer may suffice:

[Wagger]

Sorry guys. I'm having a bad day today. Vomiting every half hour.  Writing this between bouts as a diversion (won't risk too much information). Had a lovely day yesterday clearing garden and getting the oil light reinstated. Overdid it again. It would appear that there is a good mix of bits on this car. When well, I will measure and take pictures as I go. There are two pages of receipts and details of parts purchased for this car in 1998. Loads of work done back then. The handwriting is awful, but needs deciphering really.

My sympathy to all of you with 'Conditions'. I am expert at handling Advanced Prostate Cancer (after 3 yrs now) and will pass on anything useful for that. Email lloyd@daft.net as it is not really for ths forum. I did post my experience on Macmillan and Prostate Canceruk.

If you can, enjoy the rest of the day.

[Clive]

2 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Have you measured the distance between the diff flange and the gearbox flange? Apologies if you have already, can you confirm it in this post? That will let us know exactly how much of a gap there is to make up. If it's not a massive amount a simple spacer may suffice:

No, as the prop locates with a ring into a recess on the gearbox/diff flange. If that is missing the centralising will rely on the bolt holes, which is not accurate enough. That will probably cause serious vibrations. It would need to be machined with a step to make sure it centralised correctly.

 

2 hours ago, Wagger said:

Sorry guys. I'm having a bad day today. Vomiting every half hour.  Writing this between bouts as a diversion (won't risk too much information). Had a lovely day yesterday clearing garden and getting the oil light reinstated. Overdid it again. It would appear that there is a good mix of bits on this car. When well, I will measure and take pictures as I go. There are two pages of receipts and details of parts purchased for this car in 1998. Loads of work done back then. The handwriting is awful, but needs deciphering really.

My sympathy to all of you with 'Conditions'. I am expert at handling Advanced Prostate Cancer (after 3 yrs now) and will pass on anything useful for that. Email lloyd@daft.net as it is not really for ths forum. I did post my experience on Macmillan and Prostate Canceruk.

If you can, enjoy the rest of the day.

Sorry to hear that.

But if the car works, it works. Don't worry if there is the an oddball setail somewhere. 

[JohnD]

My sympathies, Wagger.

You may not have a lathe, but to make a suitable spacer, c/w any locating step, would be simple if you, or a friend did.      Easier to machine if you chose to make it out of aluminium, which IMHO would work fine. Offcuts of aluminium are easy to find on eBay.

[Wagger]

Feeling slightly better now. The space between the diff and gearbox flange is 47.625 to 47.75 inches. Not gonna worry about it as moving the engine forward is going to create loads of work. It can be used as it is until something really big goes wrong.

I did try finding previous owners to ask what and why. No luck. I am documenting all of it for my son who will own it after me.

[trigolf]

Wagger,

As previously explained, I had the same problem years ago, which was entirely of my own making. I measured the fitted length of the prop (accurately I thought, ha !). Ordered bespoke prop through Canleys. Prop arrives - bugger too short ! See pics.

So Dave supplied a longer O/D output flange. Problem solved.

Gav

[Colin Lindsay]

I've replied to you in a PM, but I'll duplicate here for the rest of the posters: I'd move the engine forward to in front of the turrets, replace the gearbox mountings in the best position, buy a 50" Herald prop, and have that shortened to the distance you now require. Cutting an inch or two out of a propshaft is no big job for the professionals, and might even be a lot simpler and hopefully cheaper in the long run than sourcing spacers or flanges.

[NonMember]

3 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

I'd move the engine forward to in front of the turrets, replace the gearbox mountings in the best position

Yes, but the point I was trying to make is: if the gearbox mount looks right, then the engine mounts should also be correct. If they're on the wrong side of the turret, make sure this isn't simply because the brackets on the side of the block are the wrong way round. If they are, you may be able to fix the "wrong position" of the engine mounts without actually moving the engine at all.

[Colin Lindsay]

10 hours ago, NonMember said:

Yes, but the point I was trying to make is: if the gearbox mount looks right, then the engine mounts should also be correct. 

You can move the gearbox mountings up or down along the mounting plate in a number of options, and I think Wagger has already posted somewhere that the engine is already behind the turrets and there's no stretch in the prop to move it forward? I may be wrong in that, but I reckon the easiest solution is to adapt a prop to fit.