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New sills, welding etc.


Dave the tram

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My GT6 is used regularly, going well and basically sound, but every year I rub down and patch up the rust at the rear end of the outer sills, lower bits of outer arches etc. Nothing too bad, it’s quite a smart car inside and out - it was rebuilt just before I got it about 14 years ago, although the paintwork is now a bit scruffy. I can’t decide how far to go in tidying it up or who to use for welding and new panels, so wondered if others had tackled similar work. I know the motto is that rust will always go deeper than you think, but I think inner sills, floor, inner arches etc are all. fine. Also the chassis, except for the bottoms of the front outriggers that hold the bumper and bonnet hinges, which have rust holes that I keep tabs on. Bonnet isn’t bad, a few small patched holes in front edge and side seams not prefect.

The simple options are (a) take the whole car apart and rebuild it, all bodywork repaired and full professional respray, or (b) keep patching it up and enjoying using it. The former would probably cost more than swapping the car for a better one that had already had everything done. I can do most things with spanner’s but not welding or spraying, although could perhaps get into the latter.

Anything in between these options and it’s hard to know where to stop. Also, once I’ve had a bit of panel work done, a full respray would make sense, but to do this properly I’d have the daunting prospect of stripping all the old paint off - not sure sprayers would entertain me just rubbing down old paint and them spraying over it.  I have a little bit of cash set aside for this and could stretch to 2 or 3k (perhaps £4K). No idea what I can get for that. Maybe I should get all the bodywork done professionally (but where) then spend time mastering the spraying myself.

Has anyone had similar dilemmas and have lessons they’ve learnt? Can anyone recommend somewhere for bodywork, preferably in the north or midlands? It would be good to take it somewhere and get a professional view.

Cheers

Dave

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Mathew said:

A fairly big compressor with about 100 litre tank for spraying and tools

You only need that if you're using air tools. For spraying, a tankless blower type (I had a couple of "Apollo" ones back in the day) will give perfectly decent results with a bit of practice.

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11 hours ago, Dave the tram said:

it was rebuilt just before I got it about 14 years ago,

If you've been looking after it properly then I wouldn't expect it to need much. Mine was rebuild in 2001 and hasn't really been looked after that well (OK, it's been garaged when not in use but not protected from rain nor re-treated anything like regularly) but it's not showing any sign of needing major work. It sounds like yours is probably not bad, so I'm with thescrapman - lots of cavity wax (the Dinitrol or similar good stuff, not Waxoyl) and keep using it.

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Dave,

One option you say is to trade it in for something better, it doesn't sound like you're deeply attached to the car?  I've had mine so long I couldn't possibly let it go and when I finally sent it to the garage in the 90s it needed 4 new wings, 2 door skins, 2 sills and a respray. This cost twice what the car was worth and with what's been done since, despite classic values rising, I will never get the money back. But I'm not bovvered, I love it!

Welding and spraying? Do you want to get good at them, or are they a means to an end to get the car running? I once did an arc welding course, but car welding is an entirely different thing!  However I'm sure I could get adequate at it, but I would leave it to a professional for a proper job. I 've sprayed small parts including the (unseen!) bulk head, but a respray? Again get a professional.  But that's me.

So are you a "It's a project" man or a "drive it like you stole it" man? :lol:

Doug

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Many thanks Mathew/all for the quick and very useful responses. For the avoidance of doubt,  I love the car, have done so much to it and am deeply attached! Of course a judgement can only be made looking at the car, probably with paint removed from problem areas, but the discussion really helps the thought process. Although used  several times every week and without obsessively avoiding rain, I avoid salty winter roads (Except soon after I got it - my daughter having bought herself a Cinquicento on her 17 birthday and got me to teach her to drive, realised that as a named driver on my classic policy she could get insured on a 2 litre sports car for £200 a year and borrowed it for a year. She learnt a lot though, manual choke, overdrive, rear wheel drive in the snow etc).

It’s always been garaged, the garage has a lifting beam and full size inspection pit so I’m forever underneath spotting any problems early. Most of the time it’s been waxoyled, but in recent years I switched to regularly using dinitrol. If I’d known what I know now and used the latter from day one it would probably have faired much better. I love working on the car, but suspect that your right Mathew, new welding skills would be for this one job and take time to perfect.

Current thoughts are, patch it well for now, start attending club meetings and learning more from others, then find a good body man and get the sills and bottom of rear arches done. Get proper spraying kit and make that the new skill, that way I can spray the repairs myself then rub down and respray whole car. I’m already not bad with rattle cans. Later take the bonnet off and get that repaired if bodging not sufficient. Thing about the overall respray is that a previous respray by others was not perfect and pulled away at many of the seams. Everyone said the only answer was to strip down to metal, but I’m not so sure as most of these areas I’ve dealt with and seem ok, all just a bit amateurish.

Derwent valley probably my nearest club and seems fairly active now. 

Onwards

Dave

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There are a few (very) reasonably priced people doing welding/painting, usually to a pretty decent std (though not top end, that DOES cost an arm/leg, probably a kidney too)

One such is Andy Dann of Classicresprays. Saw a friends Herald Coupe he did. It was a mess before, arches etc all rusted away, gaffa tape abounded for the MoT, flappy doors and so on. He repaired it all and did a decent respray. Not sure of the actual cost, but suspect 2 1/2-3k. 

 

If you go down the DIY route, Tall axle stands (just got a set of 600mm ones) needed to do sills in comfort. You don't need a powerful welder for sills and bodywork. I restored 2 cars with a 90A welder, including outriggers on my vitesse. It was fine, but needed cooling down time regularly. a 100-130A will be fine, Clarke are good value, especially used . But I do like my Oxford, makes life rather easier. Compressor, my 3hp 50L tank one has sprayed several cars no problems at all. 100L tank would be better, but larger, and not so easy to find used (recommend belt drive, easier to live with in terms of noise.

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Anyone know how I can get in touch with Andy Dann and if he’s still doing work, sounds like he might be reasonably near me and I found other good reports. Tried various searches and other posts gave address as ‘classic-resprays.co.uk’ but that didn’t work.

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Correction it’s Bilt-Hamber spray I now use for all the cavities etc. not Dinitrol. Also, regarding spray guns, I made a note from previous threads that praised high volume, low pressure spray guns and mentioned: Sealey setup (HVLP2000 600w)

Any comments?

Cheers 

Dave


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My Apollo is safely in the garage. Not for sale at the moment. I had no idea that they were highly sought after. Yes, it is the original blue model featured in and recommended by, Practical Classics all those years ago, and... I think it's the same model that Colin L mentions somewhere on my long forgotten restoration thread (thinks.... Must really get on with something productive).

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  • 1 month later...

An update on the thinking process after a couple of visits to reputable body shops. As expected, the only way to get a full respray that looks smart and will last (a warranty) is to rub it right down, and down to metal where any doubt. I can’t face stripping paint back myself after experiences just doing a door once. I’ve suggested patching in situ of the minor rust at the chassis front (bonnet and bumper support bits) after I’ve thoroughly checked the rest of the chassis (I have pit!). Then a respray, body still on but all trim etc removed and after replacing rear arch lower sections, sills if required - plus any other minor repairs found after rubbing down, bits of filler redone professionally etc.

Can’t face a full dismantle and rebuild and don’t think it’s necessary. I’d rather do this and get a smarter car back in use fairly quickly. Prices I’m getting are about £4.5 - £5.5k, which is outside my budget. However, this comes down about by £1500 if I take off all the bits myself and they transport it. That’s remove all trim and carpets, seats, bumpers, all door fittings and glass, petrol tank, radiator, bonnet, lights etc. I’d quite enjoy that, then putting it all back cleaned up, sound proofed and so on.

A complete body off restoration would be many times the work and cost I think. Also it would be never ending as the car would still not be perfect due to history of previous imperfect restorations. Assuming it would end up at £4K with hidden extras that’s my budget limit. Probably in the spring so will update then.

Never did find Andy Dann who some had recommended.

Cheers

Dave

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9 hours ago, Dave the tram said:

However, this comes down about by £1500 if I take off all the bits myself and they transport it. That’s remove all trim and carpets, seats, bumpers, all door fittings and glass, petrol tank, radiator, bonnet, lights etc. I’d quite enjoy that, then putting it all back cleaned up, sound proofed and so on

Those are the sorts of figures I am getting locally assuming the resto: (bare shell) goes to them with the "basics" done, Flatted back and ready for full prime and top coat(s). IE; absolute minimum prep; work.

Pete

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My quotes are for them doing all the rubbing down/paint stripping, bits of welding then a quality respray, and me taking all the bits off the car that might be in the way, but still a complete car, not a separated tub etc. However, once you start planning for this the inevitable question surfaces, should I be taking the tub off and doing a complete rebuild. But surely this would be much more work, perhaps more expensive and would take the car off the road for a year, not weeks.

Any thoughts?

Dave

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8 hours ago, Dave the tram said:

My quotes are for them doing all the rubbing down/paint stripping, bits of welding then a quality respray, and me taking all the bits off the car that might be in the way, but still a complete car, not a separated tub etc. However, once you start planning for this the inevitable question surfaces, should I be taking the tub off and doing a complete rebuild. But surely this would be much more work, perhaps more expensive and would take the car off the road for a year, not weeks.

Any thoughts?

Dave

In my case it became clear once I got the 13/60 back in the garage, that the repairs to the chassis where more than first thought. So removal of the Tub`s became inevitable to gain proper access. "How Long" the process takes is dependent upon the amount of time available, if DIY, as in my case, or the depth of pockets, if you hand it to the Trade/Professional. I started in Nov 2015, and it has been a sporadic journey ever since, often not getting any work done for weeks, then periods of intense activity, again 99% DIY based. Mostly around current physical ability and the "caring" duties plus a desire to still travel and use the Camper, which is my wife's "love". It will get finished, when?, I suppose it`s a case of "how long is a piece of string". But as my "old man" would have said, "keeps you out the pubs and off street corners". And I`m not just sat watching the "Magic Lantern" during daylight hours as many of my retired colleagues do/did, beats "waiting for god", that`s for sure.

Pete

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3 hours ago, PeteH said:

In my case it became clear once I got the 13/60 back in the garage, that the repairs to the chassis where more than first thought. So removal of the Tub`s became inevitable to gain proper access. "How Long" the process takes is dependent upon the amount of time available, if DIY, as in my case, or the depth of pockets, if you hand it to the Trade/Professional. I started in Nov 2015, and it has been a sporadic journey ever since, often not getting any work done for weeks, then periods of intense activity, again 99% DIY based. Mostly around current physical ability and the "caring" duties plus a desire to still travel and use the Camper, which is my wife's "love". It will get finished, when?, I suppose it`s a case of "how long is a piece of string". But as my "old man" would have said, "keeps you out the pubs and off street corners". And I`m not just sat watching the "Magic Lantern" during daylight hours as many of my retired colleagues do/did, beats "waiting for god", that`s for sure.

Pete

Keep us updated of progress, maybe a restoration thread? I've stalled on the 1200 convertible yet again, the bulkhead won't match the mounting points on the chassis and both have been rebuilt, but hey ho so what, I've two others to work on and it can sit for a time. Keeps me off the streets, out of the pub, and away from the dreadful excuse that is modern TV. Dave, you'll find out that it's never as quick a job as you expect, but there's always a satisfaction in undoing other people's lazy bodges, and doing things right.

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Hoping to take it back to one of my 2 selected body shops this week while the weather holds. Get it on the ramps and firm up an estimate. Most interior trim panels, carpet and passenger seat are out. If floor and chassis as good as I believe and just minor plates to chassis front needed, then I’ll go with the plan of keeping the tub on and the car in one piece (more or less). If I can keep body repairs and respray to £4K and they continue to convince me about their work, I’ll probably go with them.

Main advantage over the other outfit, which seems equally competent, is that this one could fit the job in early next year, so I can dismantle as required in mid winter, put back together early spring and get the benefit next year. T’others are busy till next autumn.

Dave

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9 hours ago, Dave the tram said:

Hoping to take it back to one of my 2 selected body shops this week while the weather holds. Get it on the ramps and firm up an estimate. Most interior trim panels, carpet and passenger seat are out. If floor and chassis as good as I believe and just minor plates to chassis front needed, then I’ll go with the plan of keeping the tub on and the car in one piece (more or less). If I can keep body repairs and respray to £4K and they continue to convince me about their work, I’ll probably go with them.

Main advantage over the other outfit, which seems equally competent, is that this one could fit the job in early next year, so I can dismantle as required in mid winter, put back together early spring and get the benefit next year. T’others are busy till next autumn.

Dave

Sounds like you have  a basic plan to cope with yours?. The only caution I would make is that, Like when I did the House Build, Have a contingency fund!. WE budgeted 10% for that, it disappeared in one go when they "found" running sand, and we had to pile for foundations!. So far, My costs on the 13/60 have been relatively low, but goodness knows JUST how many hours I have put in. And I have a varied background in examination and trouble shooting, across the whole spectrum of Engineering, and access to workshop machinery, which helps. Be nice to see a successful outcome!.👍. WE need to keep our heritage alive, too much is going in the "bin", in the name of progress and environmental concerns without thought for how we got here. I always say, the "birth to death" Carbon footprint on My 13/60, has to be far lower than any "modern".

Pete

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2 hours ago, PeteH said:

WE need to keep our heritage alive, too much is going in the "bin", in the name of progress and environmental concerns without thought for how we got here. I always say, the "birth to death" Carbon footprint on My 13/60, has to be far lower than any "modern".

Pete

What I have noticed recently is that spare parts are becoming harder to find; of course Covid didn't help, but autojumbles are becoming few and far between and even at shows there's not the same quantity as there used to be. Many of the panels we took for granted a few years back are no longer being made; Chic Doig has cut back and Bill Davies too. Spare parts which do come up for sale, small things like essential brackets, are really starting to go up in price. Now more than ever we need the bits to keep our cars on the road, but it's also becoming very difficult to find good bodyworkers and panel beaters who knows how to save a part rather than just unscrew and bolt on a new one.

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2 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

What I have noticed recently is that spare parts are becoming harder to find; of course Covid didn't help, but autojumbles are becoming few and far between and even at shows there's not the same quantity as there used to be. Many of the panels we took for granted a few years back are no longer being made; Chic Doig has cut back and Bill Davies too. Spare parts which do come up for sale, small things like essential brackets, are really starting to go up in price. Now more than ever we need the bits to keep our cars on the road, but it's also becoming very difficult to find good bodyworkers and panel beaters who knows how to save a part rather than just unscrew and bolt on a new one.

Spoke with Mr Pearson, and others. Over covid many of the older guys in engineering have decided it is time to retire. Even the dolomite club has had the chap who makes some of their stuff retire.  And it is hard/impossible to find people to replace them.

Canleys, Moss etc supply a lot of stuff to the wider trade. They will all behaving the same problems with suppliers But yes, some new parts are going to get very hard to find.

Quality bodywork is available, but it gets expensive very quickly. Which is why Dolly Sprints are now getting restored, they fetch 20k+ so now viable, just. 

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I`ve been looking at going to the Newark auto-jumble again, not been for several years, perhaps in the New Year. It will be interesting to see what is there in the "new era" post covid.? It`s a day out for me. sometimes take the Camper rather than the car (Mobile Tea bar).

Peter

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1 minute ago, PeteH said:

I`ve been looking at going to the Newark auto-jumble again, not been for several years, perhaps in the New Year. It will be interesting to see what is there in the "new era" post covid.? It`s a day out for me. sometimes take the Camper rather than the car (Mobile Tea bar).

Peter

Peter

I'm a regular visitor to Newark Autojumble and have been so for more than 30 years or so, I got a lot of N.O.S. Stuff and other spares for My Vitesse during it's rebuild between 2002 and 2006.

I attended last Sunday, however the amount of 60's/70's Car Spares is dwindling?

I would say around 80% of the stuff for sale is for motorbike parts or Motorbike related, with the rest being made up of all sorts of stuff, some car Parts (10% Max) but also Tools, Drills, Paints, Oil, Garden Stuff, Clothes, Shoes, etc, in fact you can more or less get anything at Newark😁

In some ways it's turned into a Giant Car Boot but Bike/Car related?

You get more stalls in the Spring and Summer but still definitely worth a visit though, Bargains and rare car parts can be had when people have a clear out of Garages/Houses?

Gary    

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