Winter Heat Required

[Colin]

Hi Everyone,

Please don't all shout at me at once - I promise I have read the Forum suggestions and have had several direct e-mail conversations in this matter:- BUT - I have only just got my Herald back - solid metal where solid metal needs to be albeit there are many things to be fettled - the 'restorer' not being a coach builder by any means. But I digress . . . to things Heater . . .

Mainly, this goes out to Pete Lewis:- 

I want to clear the DG heater matrix of what is bound to be 50 years of crud (and will check the valve if I can). I understand how to do this courtesy of the advice in the forums and kind e-mails from fellow Forum members. And, at this stage of proceedings, I want to do this without dismantling the entire shebang.

Pete - I am fascinated by your favoured use of soda crystals (I bought some before the car went away for an unexpected 10 months!). By the way, when living in France, anything requiring heavy duty cleaning, used White Vinegar - highly recommended for limescale removal. I hold some of this. But I know if you boil this, (for example in a kettle) it really boils up in a frothing rush. Hence you only fill the kettle 1/3 full. 

BUT - what soda crystal solution concentration do you use? And, could I simply substitute this method of cleaning the system instead of a proprietary Rad flush (I also hold)?

And, like the white vinegar situation, do you use the soda crystal solution with half a rad of water to allow for any internal chemical action expansion within the system as it runs up to temperature?

Is there any harm to the system using soda crystals, getting the engine up to start opening temperatures so that the system is flowing fully, heater valve open??

Then; the best place to drain? Bottom rad hose? Take that off, as well as the heater hoses?? Or heater hoses only?

And what of any benefit to using the block drain plug after a system clean-through? is that necessary/productive?

So many questions . . . .

Cheers everyone (PETE!)

Best,

C.

1970 Royal Blue Herald 1200 Saloon

[Pete Lewis]

Ha .  well  i have used 2 mug fulls of cheapo washing soda crystals  dissolve in hot water add to empty rad and run engine whilst topping up keep heater valve open all the time 

run the car for a few days to get some good circulation ,dont leave in for a month you could dissolve alloy thermo hsg,and such like

soda attack alloys. but   not copper 

take off bottom hose to generously flush out , the rad drain tap is just  a small piddle     put garden hose on heater pipes and give it a blast 

i would remove the thermostat when flushing (not before engine needs to  be Hot ) 

refill with clean water run for a couple of days and remove bottom hose to gush out , now refill with gylcol antifreeze  50/50 mix 

its cheap and it works   it wont remove age old casting rubbish ,  but nothing will   

 

Pete

[Clive]

Bit late in the year to be doing this, as the best place to start is with a hosepipe. 

I would take hoses off the heater, undo the block drain, both rad hoses, and almost every hose in sight. The heater can be flushed bth directions several times, the block drain may come out, but no water, needing a good prod with wire or whatever to clear the solidified crud.

The other "tender spot" is the pipe under the manifolds. It has a small hole for the side T , easily blocked up. In fact, if in doubt about the pipe it may be worth replacing. (stainless pipes are not bad value)

Of course, flush the rad both ways, and keep going around until no more stuff comes out. 

There is a slight problem. A radiator (or heater matrix) can get blocked tubes, and no amount of flushing will remove the blockage as no water will flow down that tube to clear it, as flow will just go down the clear tubes. 

Anyway, once the loose stuff is out, run cleaner of your choice to remove a bit more crud, and then flush. That is as good as you will realistically get it at home.

 

 

[dougbgt6]

Colin,

I used the Lewis Soda Crystal method and it works very well. I was going to tell you all about it, but Pete and Clive have said it all!

I put in Waitrose best and ran around for a week, did 50 miles? Soda eats aluminium, but there's no precision aluminium in there.

Doug (Not Pete)

[Clive]

Ha, pete puts cleaner in, then flushes, I do it the other way round. Who wins? Who knows, they both work.

Yes, soda will attack ali, but very slowly. Now, if you used Sodium Hydroxide it would be VERY aggressive. (very nasty stuff, much nastier than almost any acid) Heat is your friend for cleaning the system out, so good idea to run the engine up to temperature, or better drive it like Doug. Leaving it cold will not do a lot.

 

[dougbgt6]

It was while doing this I discovered my block drain tap didn't do anything. No amount of poking with screwdrivers or bent wire worked, I discovered the blockage is in fact casting sand. Some research revealed that the tap goes into a chamber which is lower than the water jacket. The chamber is there solely to provide a drain path to the tap. Water doesn't circulate through the chamber, so of course the entrance to the chamber gets blocked. If I ever take the head off again I'll see if I can clear it from above, but as the sand has been there since day one  I'll just put up with no drain tap and disconnect the bottom hose.

All of which leads me to say this is the time to give your drain tap a poke, who knows, you may be lucky and get it to work!

Doug

[Pete Lewis]

57 minutes ago, dougbgt6 said:

this is the time to give your drain tap a poke, who knows, you may be lucky and get it to work!

I take tablets 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

2 hours ago, clive said:

The other "tender spot" is the pipe under the manifolds. It has a small hole for the side T , easily blocked up. In fact, if in doubt about the pipe it may be worth replacing. (stainless pipes are not bad value)

1200 doesn't have a T, only the later and much more sophisticated Herald versions do...

[Colin]

Gents:- thanks so much for all this info.

Pete:- 

You have emptied your rad (bottom hose). Your 2 mug dissolved washing soda mix goes in the rad.

You run the engine and as it runs, top up the rad. 

To full, as it runs?

Then at some stage of running with the heater valve open, the stat opens, lets the water round the system including the heater.

Do you run with the rad cap off? I did that after recently having the rad off and reverse flushing (quite a bit of crystalised anti freeze dropped out) - but when the stat opened the rad gulped and burped and sprayed pretty damn hot rad water/antifreeze everywhere - not ideal.

But then, rad topped up you leave it in the car and run it around a bit, per day?

Then drain, undo all hoses and flush every which way??

Please correct if I've got that wrong. OK. Ta.

Next:- this afternoon, I noted the heater valve cable could be opening the valve a little more than it has been. Shouldn't think that's the main problem really. But also the vent direction knob needs some work so I get any heat which does pass through directed to where I want it. The cable sheath is moving at one part of its travel but it's in a b****r of a position to do anything to. 

That manifold pipe:- hits a union rear of the water pump housing. What comes with a replacement pipe, should I decide to replace in the future?

That bulkhead foam seal:- is it replaceable with everything in situ? Mine's original 1970. Someone said it may be leaking any hot air out into the engine bay rather than keeping it in the cabin? Could I just sealant around it - insulate it effectively??

And - oh! I had it mind to swop my steel rad for an aluminium one in the future . . . . you make it sound as if the washing soda treatment will not be suitable if I head that route!!?!!

Again:- many thanks chaps. Will try to keep folk posted 😊

Have a great weekend All. 

C.

[Colin Lindsay]

7 minutes ago, Colin said:

That manifold pipe:- hits a union rear of the water pump housing. What comes with a replacement pipe, should I decide to replace in the future?

That bulkhead foam seal:- is it replaceable with everything in situ? Mine's original 1970. Someone said it may be leaking any hot air out into the engine bay rather than keeping it in the cabin? Could I just sealant around it - insulate it effectively??

And - oh! I had it mind to swop my steel rad for an aluminium one in the future . . .

The manifold pipe needs an olive, but often the nut which screws into the housing can be corroded too. Both pipe and nut are available in stainless but be wary some of them are not the correct profile and will not go anywhere near to the head stud they're meant to connect to at the rear of the head. 1200 pipes and 13/60 are different, too.

The bulkhead foam seal seals round the heater outlet, but that sits into the bulkhead so you'll need to take the heater off to fit a new seal. If you seal the foam to the bulkhead aperture before refitting the heater you can ensure that there are no leaks round it. Just be careful not to tear it when refitting the heater. Any other method, you can't reach the whole way round.

Do you have a full width radiator? Alloy radiators are very much personal choice, they seem to do the job but I've always used full-width radiators in my Heralds and they seem to work well enough.  

[Chris A]

All the above is excellent advice, the only thing I can add is be sure the heater valve does work. On my 13/60 the valve moved but was so bunged up it was blocked. I removed the valve and put the hose directly on the heater inlet/outlet. New valve was installed.

When I get close to home after a run out I open the heating system to get the water flowing so there isn't 'stagnant' water. No idea if it helps but I feel better for doing it. I leave it open until the next outing.

[Colin]

Morning Chris.

Many thanks and the advice sounds completely sensible. 

Those questions I raised above I know I will come to answer myself as I do the job (probably - but don't let that stop anyone pitching in bvkveforehand!).

I've never fiddled with the heater, valve or matrix before . . . (never really had any heat out of it before either!), which was tricky when she became our only (daily) vehicle whilst living in Burgundy, where Winter dropped to -17C sometimes and my daughter needed to be driven to the school bus pick-up point for 07.00 in the morning!!

Will report findings as soon as  . . . 

Best,

C. 

[Pete Lewis]

delaney valve is not  really  a diy strippable valve 

as for replacements there are many simple cable operated spherical tap options around and can be very cheap to fit in the heater hose 

eg car builder solutions   

 

[dougbgt6]

I got one of these bought from Amazon.com in $ (not Amazon.co.uk), but delivered from a UK Amazon.co.uk warehouse (weird)  Recommended by rlubikey (East Berks Richard) They are a universal fitting on USA cars and UK black cabs, apparently.

Same fitting and much smother than the standard valve. 

Doug

[Colin]

Chaps - thanks for that info re Dg valves - very useful!

PETE:- in your missive about the way you run the car up to temperature (the soda crystal flush method), you said also leave the 'stat housing open.

Re my recent rad off, reverse flush experience, once back on and refilled (leaving rad cap off to assess water/antifreeze levels), the whole engine bay got properly soaked in pretty damn hot fluid at the point the 'stat must have opened - the rad burping and belching out of its cap opening.

Will this not be exacerbated by my also opening the 'stat housing?

I can see it's advantage  - getting the cleaner through that orifice as well - but I'm concerned about the collateral soaking in hot soda crystal water!!

What's your experience/tip for minimising this??

Cheers,

Colin (the other one).

[Pete Lewis]

being a bit on the safe side of a scalding    only flush a cold engine  and drain down before removing Stat   hsg 

you only need the stat out to aid getting more of a  soaking  with the flushing hose 

much more exciting get the wife / partner/friend   to do it ,   you just  manage the Tap 

on Dougs alternative site it would suggest just do it in your wellies   ha !!

Pete

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

You can also fit one of these adaptors, they fit into the blanked off waterway (the small nut like a gearbox drain plug) at the rear of the head and adapt the more common Smiths valve.

If you also want to be able to run the engine safely whilst flushing try one of the Fah-Ler radiator caps with the pressure release lever, which enables you to bleed off any pressure on a hot engine before removing the cap.

[Colin]

Thanks Pete! Yes, getting the wife involved could prove quite lively!!

[Colin]

Clive:- Re your earlier . . .

"The other "tender spot" is the pipe under the manifolds. It has a small hole for the side T , easily blocked up. In fact, if in doubt about the pipe it may be worth replacing. (stainless pipes are not bad value)"

It has a small hole for the side T ?? Does it? I hadn't spotted that. What does it 'T' into, then?

Best,

C.

[Colin]

Thanks Colin. Didn't know such rad caps existed!

[Colin]

So:- just to round things off a little, yesterday I drained the system and flushed with the proprietary flush compound I held. Ran her up to temperature and thereafter for the 10 mins required.

Drained the rad; took out the block water drain plug, opened and removed the thermostat housing taking the 'stat out; took all the heater matrix hoses off.

Flushed each and every element forward, backward every which way possible with a hose using clean tap water. The heater matrix did indeed spew some immensely brown muck content - although tbh, I expected much more, perhaps even solid gunge to have been expelled.

Put it all back together again; new thermostat (I had been holding); one new heater pipe required (I held); refilled the system with 30% anti-freeze mix and ran her up.

Some heat at the dash vents, but not overwhelmingly so. Noticed the front of the gearbox cover was quite toasty and clearly some heat was entering the cabin (although why I want a toasty front carpet as opposed to warm feet is beyond me).

SO I ASSUME (and we all know what assumptions make of you and me!), that the heater is giving out heat, maybe that I just can't direct it as required (fan runs OK but seems really feeble - especially at dash vents).

I know I have in the past had issues with the vents cabling (broke the cable tightening screw once and have had to use 'chocolate' block electrical connectors to even get the cable to move. Perhaps it's that whereby I can't get the direction to the dash vents I need? That'll be with the dash knob pulled completely out, won't it?

Did I see somewhere else a description of whereabouts any heat from the matrix is being directed by the pulling out of the knob by stages - with on'e head under the dash one can see pushing in the pulled out knob closes the cabin flap, but where the knob needs to be for maximum dash vent operation is pretty invisible (unless one has had these things out of the car and observed them in the past - which I haven't.

So that's where I'm at chaps.

Best,

Colin W

 

 

[Pete Lewis]

the distribution flap(use that term loosley)  is a pretty crude pivoting flap  that is rotated by the push pull control 

over the years the seals (use that term loosely )  fail and the flap doesnt seal or deflect the air up or down just a weak mixture of both 

taking the unit out to repair the flaps is   easy on Vit or Herald as the air box is just 2 nuts under the heater and above the tunnel and the cable 

you need upside down varifocals and feet in the air to get at these  its not so much being an acrobat as giving your knacker a bat 

the seals on the flap is old rubber old foam or old felt  that closes the flap vane to the air box 

Pete

[dougbgt6]

Colin,

Sounds like the heater fan.  I hear it's a tricky job to refurbish, but I don't need MORE heat in a GT6 so I've never contemplated it. However I have experimented with small computer fans on the cold air vents. This worked surprisingly well when I lashed it up, but I've never got around to a proper installation. These are £2.25 each and about 2" square.

 

 

Doug

[Colin]

Thanks Pete, Doug.

Before going away for new metal, I did lose a piece of felt from the lower flap. I have held on to it and can probably re-glue. What I'm really struggling with (repeating that this is one of the few elements I've never taken out of the car), is at what stage air is directed to the screen vents (I need a rudimentary sketch!). 

Pete, are you saying that when that flap is shut, all the air goes to (or blown by the fan) the screen vents? 

Is that correct?

So actually, if I'm missing one or both the 'closing' seals on that lower flap, the heater air will leak into the cabin and there will be less to go to the screen vents??

Have I got that right?? 

Could be a simple fix - and I'll certainly be putting back (if not improving) those felt seals.

It may make some difference hopefully.

Doug:- if I was electrically minded, I too, would be having a go at beefing up the fan performance! 

Confirmation of my understanding (or not), welcomed! 

Thanks Both.

C.

[PeteH]

There is on here somewhere a couple posts about fitting alternative fans in the system. Nissan Micra, and Smart Car?. The problem with all heating systems is the fact that once you get it working as good as. The next move is increasing the Matrix CSA which is what is required to improve heat transfer to the air passing over the matrix. Cleaning the Air side, is as important as the water side.  Pete

Edit:- https://forum.tssc.org.uk/topic/7802-nissan-micro-heater-fan-conversion/?tab=comments#comment-108341