Hardy Spicer to CV joint

[Ian Smith]

Hello Folks, yet another question from the collective, if I may....

This relates to the U/J either side of the differential. We know that the inner drive flanges are connected to the inner halfshaft with a Hardy Spicer joint. So far, so good. Is it viable to replace the outer shaft & hub with a CV joint? The principle is similar to the Mini, with a CV joint, and universal joints  Naturally, the bearing dimensions will be different to reflect the changes. But, If I've got this right, the CV joint will continue to work as normal. Things like track,  toe-in & camber are already  resolved in the original set up. End float on the CV joint as it passes through the hub needs some thinking through.

As usual, your opinions/ views  are welcomed.

Cheers,

Ian.

[PeteH]

If this is what you are describing?. This is what Google brings up.:-

https://www.google.com/search?q=Triumph+C-V+conversions&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=AOaemvILUUaT89dENKaz3pvjTX9RQLPHQA%3A1636271596030&ei=7IWHYeiXAdKx8gLn9prIDg&oq=Triumph+C-V+conversions&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BwgjELADECc6BwgAEEcQsAM6BAghEApKBAhBGABQwAtYixRg7R9oAXACeACAAU2IAf8DkgEBN5gBAKABAcgBCcABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwjovfLZ4oX0AhXSmFwKHWe7BukQ4dUDCA0&uact=5

Pete

[trigolf]

If I understand your question correctly, Classic Driving Developments already make a CV driveshaft as a conversion.

[Stratton Jimmer]

I am in the process of fitting the second (nearside) CDD shaft to my Mk3 GT6. It's a relatively straightforward job. The manufacturer says that if the bearings are not changed, the existing shims and spacer will be correct. My offside shaft had no shims, only the spacer and when checked for end float proved to be correct.

[Ian Smith]

Hello Folks, thank you for your responses. I'm not about to knock the producers or sellers of the CV upgrade kits. After all, The appeal of the one -shop application has great merit. However, the skinflint in me baulks at the prospect of paying nearly £750 for the kit, with the added bonus (!)  of more expenditure in terms of rear hub bearings. Yes, I know I'll be taking the hubs down for close inspection & repair, but knowing that CV joints are an 'off the shelf' item has led me to  my initial question. 

Once again, comments are gratefully received.

Cheers,

Ian 

[Pete Lewis]

 first question is what car is this idea for ??

you can use a cv joint on any of the rotaflex cars but not possible on a non rotaflex   as the length of the drive shaft must be a fixed length as it forms part of the suspension

think  any cv/slip joint would allow the ride to collapse as the shaft acts as the lower wishbone 

Pete

[Ian Smith]

1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said:

 first question is what car is this idea for ??

Pete

A GT6-based car, in many respects to the Burlington. I'm building an Arrow version. My angle is slightly different to that of of the many dedicated people on here, As although the main part is Triumph, there are differences, which prompted my post.

Cheers,

Ian. 

[Clive]

2 hours ago, Ian Smith said:

Hello Folks, thank you for your responses. I'm not about to knock the producers or sellers of the CV upgrade kits. After all, The appeal of the one -shop application has great merit. However, the skinflint in me baulks at the prospect of paying nearly £750 for the kit, with the added bonus (!)  of more expenditure in terms of rear hub bearings. Yes, I know I'll be taking the hubs down for close inspection & repair, but knowing that CV joints are an 'off the shelf' item has led me to  my initial question. 

Once again, comments are gratefully received.

Cheers,

Ian 

Nick jones did a DIY conversion. It used an adapter to teh diff 1/4shaft, volvo 340 inner CV, rover 100 shaft and a mk3 esport outer CV and used teh std rotoflex bearings. This was later refined, and the Rotoflex upright was machined to accept the MGF/rover bearing pack, and matching CV. The MASSIVR advantage is there is zero setting up of the bearing, and the hub is much stronger. I have 2 of those setups, one on each of my spitfires. And so far they are indestructible despite my very best attempts (ie lock the back wheels up on track at 60mph by dropping to 2nd gear a bit carelessly, no issues. sub 15 second 1/4 mile at Santa Pod when the club held its event there, several runs. That sort of abuse, reckon it would be about 14 seconds now...)

However, those once common parts are now difficult to find. But have a search of te sideways forum, there are a few alternatives.

 

[Pete Lewis]

1 hour ago, Ian Smith said:

respects to the Burlington.

my friend Ray built his Burlington in his lounge 

he has sadly passed on and the whereabout of what happend to his wonderful machine is unkown

his was on a stretched Spitfire  chassis + GT6 engine std  non rota rear suspn afaik

Pete

[Ian Smith]

Nice one Pete. Although I can spend the money, I'd rather spend it on trying to emulate the Beretta. Thanks also to Clive (and others ) for their input about the CV joint thoughts. 

I've got a fairly tame machine shop up the road from here, so a friendly visit is in the offing!

Bearing packs being ordered today.

 

Thanks folks,

Ian.

[Clive]

11 minutes ago, Ian Smith said:

Nice one Pete. Although I can spend the money, I'd rather spend it on trying to emulate the Beretta. Thanks also to Clive (and others ) for their input about the CV joint thoughts. 

I've got a fairly tame machine shop up the road from here, so a friendly visit is in the offing!

Bearing packs being ordered today.

 

Thanks folks,

Ian.

Don't buy anything until you fully understand all you need, and its availability. As mentioned, some stuff is almost impossible to find now.

[Nick Jones]

You never did answer the question of whether you are starting from a rotoflex car or swing axle….. GT6s came in both forms.

You can go CVs on either but to convert a swing axle car requires parts from a rotoflex car and some extra brackets on the chassis amongst other things.

And if you are starting with a rotoflex car, £750 for the shafts isn’t too bad a price.

Nick

[Ian Smith]

On 12/11/2021 at 22:46, Nick Jones said:

You never did answer the question of whether you are starting from a rotoflex car or swing axle….. GT6s came in both forms.

You can go CVs on either but to convert a swing axle car requires parts from a rotoflex car and some extra brackets on the chassis amongst other things.

And if you are starting with a rotoflex car, £750 for the shafts isn’t too bad a price.

Nick

Hello Nick, please accept my apologies for this late reply. The chassis is currently Rotoflex-equipped. In my original post, I said that the intention was to restore the car (mechanical ) to meet later 20th Century attributes, such as 5-speed box, disc brakes all round, etc. Naturally,  all of my attention is focused to the rear portion of the chassis at the moment. I'm pretty determined to have rear disc brakes, and handbrake.

I'll accept that I'm on the lower rungs of a steep learning curve; opening up questions like this helps me enormously. 

Cheers,

Ian.

 

[NonMember]

1 hour ago, Ian Smith said:

disc brakes all round, etc

Are you also planning to fit ABS? Because that's the only reason for rear discs. Even current production stays with drums on rear if not ABS-equipped (not that many cars don't have ABS these days).

[Ian Smith]

37 minutes ago, NonMember said:

Are you also planning to fit ABS? Because that's the only reason for rear discs. Even current production stays with drums on rear if not ABS-equipped (not that many cars don't have ABS these days).

Thanks for your post. Yes, but early days for me, I'm afraid.

[Nick Jones]

23 hours ago, Ian Smith said:

later 20th Century attributes, such as 5-speed box, disc brakes all round

Can relate. Have those (except the rear discs) on both my cars and programmable engine management on one of them.

Starting from a rotoflex car does make CVs much easier.

Nick

[Nick Jones]

22 hours ago, NonMember said:

Are you also planning to fit ABS? Because that's the only reason for rear discs. Even current production stays with drums on rear if not ABS-equipped (not that many cars don't have ABS these days).

Isn’t this a bit of a generalisation? Had a Polo hire car that had both ABS and hill hold, yet drum rear brakes. Was a surprise to me I admit?

Other reasons for rear discs (on an old Triumph) might include a desire for self adjustment, a desire not to pay £60 each for new drums, or a desire for decent friction materials……

I once might have added “a handbrake that works”, but for some reason the handbrake on my GT6 is actually excellent, a first on any small chassis car I’ve owned, which have varied from barely-adequate-on-a-good-day to adequate. Just wish I understood why so I could apply it to the others!!

Nick

[PeteH]

Beat me to it, SWMBO`s Last Car, Ford B-Max. had full ABS and drum rear brakes too?. A few years back I had a Fiat Based Motorhome with ABS, which had rear disks fitted around a Drum Handbrake system, NOT a very good idea, and hard in the extreme to set up to work effectively enough to pass the MOT!.

Pete

[NonMember]

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

Isn’t this a bit of a generalisation?

Possibly, but it was a statement made to me by somebody from Ford's brake division.

1 hour ago, Nick Jones said:

I once might have added “a handbrake that works”

Acutally, handbrakes that work are a major driving force to fit drums. Disc handbrakes always used to be terrible.

[Ian Smith]

Hello Folks, I'll try to expand on my post, if I may. 

Drum brakes? Yes, no problem. But I well remember messing about with rally-prepped rear drum brakes on escorts & the like. I've gotten a bit older since then, and more grey hair. Some normals have drum rears, but in all honesty, they're at the budget range. Nick has rather eloquently covered a lot of it, so I'll bow to his posting. 

Right now, the chassis has the capability to be improved. I must confess I'm in a better position, being sans bodywork. That's in no way to lord it over people, but to better understand how & where this is going. I understand the twin CV arrangement, which is in similar in practice to a mini, or any front wheel drive car. (or, rear wheel car with IRS). I should say that if you're reading my notes, the jury is still out. I have a pretty good idea, but there's nothing wrong with people presenting better ideas. Still climbing that learning curve.....

[Pete Lewis]

on the Master vans the HB worked inside the offset disc to form a small drum ,to get the "parking"  efficiency up they decided to knurl the drum surface

which on multi drop use means the guy is out the door while its rolling and the shoes are now going round and round inside the drum  a real wonderful idea 

having scrapped the 50series with  6 " wide shoes for this micky mouse arrangement raised a few of the old school  Dodge eyebrows 

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

10 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

on the Master vans the HB worked inside the offset disc to form a small drum

My Volvo was like that; discs on the outer and handbrake shoes inside the small drum in the centre. Interesting once you understood how to change the shoes.

[PeteH]

I had an American R-V (Motor-home) built on a Spartan (Fire Engine) Chassis. The Parking Brake was on the transmission "Prop Shaft", an idea which if I recall was also used by Land Rover on the "series" vehicles?.

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

55 minutes ago, PeteH said:

The Parking Brake was on the transmission "Prop Shaft", an idea which if I recall was also used by Land Rover on the "series" vehicles?.

Pete

It was, which is why a few of them were damaged over here during MOT when the tester pulled the handbrake on while the vehicle was on the rollers. I remember having to remind the tester not to do the same with my TD5 and getting a sour look.

[PeteH]

21 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

It was, which is why a few of them were damaged over here during MOT when the tester pulled the handbrake on while the vehicle was on the rollers. I remember having to remind the tester not to do the same with my TD5 and getting a sour look.

Ditto, with 9tonne of "fire truck". I wouldn't let them test it. They ran it on the rollers, and then stopped the rollers, handbrake on and then start them up again.

Pete