LPG

[Wagger]

Do any of you run your Triumph on LPG? Around 1997(ish) I had an automatic petrol car with Motronic single rail injection. I blanked off the return to the tank and used an adjustable gas regulator set to 4 Bar connecting my caravan bottle directly to the single rail. To my amazement it started, ran and would move with the brakes applied even with the gas bottle vertical (not liquid feed). So, it may have worked well. However, as petrol injectors may not like LPG and it became illegal to do these mods without proper qualifications in the gas field I never went any further. As the costs of conversions were around £2k I lost interest and moved over to diesels.

Now that petrol and diesel are within a few pence of each other, I will stay with diesel until present car needs a DPF. They are now becoming too complex, so I may look for a good 1982 Petrol car about to become 'Tax Exempt' and have it 'Bi-fueled'. I had some good straight sixes back then. Should have kept one.

 

[mark powell]

I have an LPG conversion on my Midge, 1500 spit engine with twin SU's.  I did a DIY conversion back in 2002 and ran it with dual fuel until I sold the car in 2011.  performance wasn't quite as good as petrol, but as I was doing 90 miles a day commute, I didn't begrudge it. It paid for itself in about 9 months. 

Having bought the car back in 2017 and subjected it to a complete rebuild (retaining the LPG set up) I have not been able to get it running successfully on the gas.  I need some help.

 

 

[PeteH]

LPG "conversions" are/where very popular with the UK American Vehicle owners, For obvious reasons of fuel cost. It is calculated the the "MPG" is reduced to about 90% of Petrol. But the cost/litre is/was so different as to make it economically viable. A commercial conversion Circa 2003 was estimated to be 2 to 3K on a V8 or V10. Chevy or Ford. Most Issues with incorrect fueling are allegedly linked to the Gas control management system.

Pete

[Bfg]

I had LPG / petrol (dual fuel) on my Scimitar SE6A (Essex 3 litre engine with downdraft Weber carburettor) ..and I would given the choice go that way again, as it was excellent. Easy starting, smoother, VERY MUCH cleaner running, totally reliable and noticeably more economical.   However there are many less LPG fuel stations now, and I wouldn't know if it's still practical. 

[Wagger]

Hi Bfg. Yes, I have noticed the stations are diminishing. However, it will be available bottled for years to come as used in forklifts. Our MD in 1979, had his giant Volvo running on the Blue bottles. We will be producing gas from waste in the future. our local landfil sites have been bottling it for 30 years.

[PeteH]

One of the Biggest issues with Methane fuel from waste. Is it`s High Sulfur content which necessitates it being "scrubbed" before it can be used in I-C engines and or Burnt in Boilers. To bring it to a C-Value acceptable for the National Gas grid it is most often "Sweetened" with Propane.

[Wagger]

Hi PeteH. I know that you have posted these facts before and I appreciate your knowledge. However, even in rural Sussex, I know of two old landfill sites that exude methane, hydrogen sulphide and more. It is not well publicised. The land is useless with the exception that one site does have poly tunnels on it heated by the gas.

Our council are promoting Solar Power and we are having a survey this week to assess the viability. We can have PV or just water heaters and we face five degrees East of South with no obstructions. I was expecting a quote of £10 plus, but the initial one, subject to survey was £6k. We could have an electric car and run very economically if we go for it. We are not committed and can opt out if we decide against it.

It seems so anti-classic to have a classic car electrified, but some do go for it. My brother in law was a real petrol head but now has a top end Nissan Leaf. It goes like a rocket but is soul-less.

Petrol cars may not run well on Hydrogen and that gas finds its way through thick steel plate. However, it is no more dangerous than a tank of petrol. The Hindenberg was a giant bag. It did not explode, simply burned very quickly. My exploits in the kitchen have shown how volatile flour and sugar can be. Forget the oil.

I suppose that I should not concern myself too much at my age and in my condition. However, I do have sons and grand-children and I want them to have fun. I am trying to get them interested in methods of separating oxygen from nitrogen in the intake of Internal Combustion Engines. No Nitrogen in should mean no Nitrogen oxides coming out.

At the birth of vehicles, there were many electric ones. If battery technology had evolved more quickly we may not have bothered with anything else.

Again though, the best forms of electric traction do not carry their power supply around. Trolley buses were another form of this.

We could convert the roads to  giant dodgem tracks with overhead netting and pantographs. Now I am being silly.

Oh dear! I have digressed again.

 

[Bfg]

4 hours ago, Wagger said:

Hi Bfg. Yes, I have noticed the stations are diminishing. However, it will be available bottled for years to come as used in forklifts. Our MD in 1979, had his giant Volvo running on the Blue bottles. We will be producing gas from waste in the future. our local landfill sites have been bottling it for 30 years.

Surely bottled gas is fine for those vehicles easily adapted to carry them ?  ..but then bottle gas has always been very much more expensive than LPG direct from the filling stations.  Aside from that I'm not going to have a couple of gas bottle poking through holes in my TR's boot lid.  

4 hours ago, PeteH said:

One of the Biggest issues with Methane fuel from waste. Is it`s High Sulfur content which necessitates it being "scrubbed" before it can be used in I-C engines and or Burnt in Boilers. To bring it to a C-Value acceptable for the National Gas grid it is most often "Sweetened" with Propane.

I know very little about the subject, but I understood that blue bottles were typically for butane. Where does methane come into it ?

[ahebron]

That takes me back.
Alternative fuels used to be a thing here in NZ. When I was doing my time at the local power board (electricity and gas) most of the petrol vehicle fleet was converted to CNG Marina vans, Transits and Bedford vans, Minis etc.
A mechanic friend managed to convert Triumph 2.5 PI saloons to CNG whilst keeping the PI in place.
I owned a Ford Falcon XD Ute (4.1 litre straight 6) that was on LPG and later a Land Rover V8 110 County. Both vehicles ran fine and economically though the Ford would dry out the accelerator pump so it needed replacing.

When I owned my 300TDi Discovery I was tempted to add LPG to that but the knowledge to 'fumigate' didn't exist in NZ at that time.

CNG is very hard to find in NZ these days and LPG is getting rarer

[Wagger]

I would have loved to have visited NZ. Low population, lovely scenery, good for Campers and motor bikes. I guess that you have Hydro-electric there and geothermal is viable too. I lost a friend this year who lived there from October to May, then here for the rest of the year.

[NonMember]

11 hours ago, Wagger said:

The Hindenberg was a giant bag. It did not explode, simply burned very quickly.

Importantly, the hydrogen fire also didn't kill anyone - those who died of burns were burnt by the diesel fuel for the engines.

4 hours ago, Mathew said:

Lpg is supposed to be clean and when running on it for the emissions test on the MOT is exempt. Considering this i wonder why lpg is not being pushed more?

LPG is clean, compared to petrol, in terms of the traditional regulated emissions - hydrocarbons, NOx and sulphur compounds. This is because it burns fully, relatively cool and contains no contaminants (usually). However, it's still a fossil fuel and still produces as much CO2 per mile.

[Wagger]

Hi Rob. My son did 'A' level environmental science. We agree with you, BUT the alternatives need careful planning. That is something new to politicians. OK, we could use hydrogen but that requires using more water. That is going to be a problem as drinking water is scarce. I know that we could produce hydrogen from seawater but some say that we would eventually deplete the planet of hydrogen. It is a very complex problem. I have had an enjoyable life, free from wars and loads of restrictions now imposed. I consider myself very lucky indeed. I'll leave the rest for another forum.

[NonMember]

2 hours ago, Wagger said:

I know that we could produce hydrogen from seawater but some say that we would eventually deplete the planet of hydrogen.

Errrr.... the thing with extracting hydrogen from water is that when used in your car engine it burns to produce... water. So it's a closed system as long as we don't let too much of the gaseous hydrogen leak out. If it does leak, we lose it, because it's light enough to escape Earth's gravity. However, that's not the only way we lose hydrogen and, frankly, there's so much of the stuff trapped in various chemical forms that we would seriously struggle to make much of a dent.

Nuclear fusion does "use up" hydrogen, of course.

[Wagger]

Ah, but we overlook the fact that hydrogen leaks through very thick tanks. It goes into the upper atmostphere and disappears from the planet. Apparently, this happened on Mars. This info came from a brilliant Astro Physicist former colleague. He was, usually, correct, I really do not know.

The real answer is so contraversional that I will not post it. I agree that we have to do something. However, it only takes 0.0001% (or less) of the World's population to ruin it by continuing to spread litter, dump stuff and disobey to wreck it for all.

Back to insanity, as my father used to say.

[Colin Lindsay]

7 minutes ago, Wagger said:

Ah, but we overlook the fact that hydrogen leaks through very thick tanks. It goes into the upper atmostphere and disappears from the planet. Apparently, this happened on Mars.

What did the Martians make their really thick tanks out of?

[Wagger]

Really thick Martians Colin.

Mathew has a better answer. Love it.

Oh dear, I've ventured into the 'Politically Incorrect' zone again. Well, you have to in oder to do the fun stuff long forgotten eh.

I enjoyed myself years ago watching somebody trying to electrolyse distilled water fast enough to use the hydrogen and oxygen as a fuel. I stood way off whilst he raised the voltage between his electrodes just 2mm apart in the 'Solution'. It exploded really violently. 'How can water do that' he cried. I've seen the HHO idiots repeat this one on video.

The two gases produced ignite instantly when the Arc strikes.

Dihydrogen Monoxide can be deadly. See Wikipedia.

[Chris A]

9 minutes ago, Wagger said:

Oh dear, I've ventured into the 'Politically Incorrect' zone again.

No, racist: Implying the Martians 👽 were incompetent, but they DO make good bars. 

[Wagger]

I know this has digressed way off, but it is real fun. I have an old colleague who is a member of the Jowett Jupiter Club. In fact, he wrote a brilliant restoration manual for them. When he fills in questionaires, he enters 'Jupiterism' under religion.

Oh dear, I am now 'Agnostic' or 'Secular' as well as racist.

 

[Colin Lindsay]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

'Touched by his noodly appendage'. Oh dear.

[PeteH]

16 hours ago, Bfg said:

Where does methane come into it ?

The by product of Anaerobic digestion, or the natural biodegrading of Waste matter is any of various varieties of Methane. The waste matter produced is a slurry devoid of oxygen which is lethal to plant and animal life.

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, PeteH said:

The by product of Anaerobic digestion, or the natural biodegrading of Waste matter is any of various varieties of Methane. The waste matter produced is a slurry devoid of oxygen which is lethal to plant and animal life.

Pete

Hence we have a lot of farmyard tragedies locally, often two family members where one has collapsed and other tried to retrieve them. Cows give off a lot of it, therefore we should dispense with the Tiger in the Tank and instead put a tank in the cow, which can be tapped off at leisure. Presumably hydrogen is lighter otherwise all of the cows would be escaping Earth's atmosphere by now.

[Chris A]

4 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Presumably hydrogen is lighter otherwise all of the cows would be escaping Earth's atmosphere by now.

Good point, and pigs might fly . .

[Bfg]

2 hours ago, PeteH said:

The by product of Anaerobic digestion, or the natural biodegrading of Waste matter is any of various varieties of Methane. The waste matter produced is a slurry devoid of oxygen which is lethal to plant and animal life.

Pete

i was asking re. context to this thread

[ahebron]

5 hours ago, Wagger said:

Really thick Martians Colin.

Mathew has a better answer. Love it.

Oh dear, I've ventured into the 'Politically Incorrect' zone again. Well, you have to in oder to do the fun stuff long forgotten eh.

I enjoyed myself years ago watching somebody trying to electrolyse distilled water fast enough to use the hydrogen and oxygen as a fuel. I stood way off whilst he raised the voltage between his electrodes just 2mm apart in the 'Solution'. It exploded really violently. 'How can water do that' he cried. I've seen the HHO idiots repeat this one on video.

The two gases produced ignite instantly when the Arc strikes.

Dihydrogen Monoxide can be deadly. See Wikipedia.

Isnt that Browns gas. 

[PeteH]

On 19/11/2021 at 19:26, Wagger said:

Hi Bfg. Yes, I have noticed the stations are diminishing. However, it will be available bottled for years to come as used in forklifts. Our MD in 1979, had his giant Volvo running on the Blue bottles. We will be producing gas from waste in the future. our local landfil sites have been bottling it for 30 years.

 

11 hours ago, Bfg said:

i was asking re. context to this thread

Bottle gas is usually Butane/Propane, "Land fill" is (largely) methane. All have different C-V`s, not all are suitable for Propulsive/heating purposes. Back in the 90`s, I put out of service two steam boilers which where less than 2 years old. The heating surfaces where so badly corroded they had become Dangerous. This was the effect of the Acid produced when burning Raw Methane Bio-fuel. The Cheese Makers concerned almost went out of business. In the context of current use most of the gas supplied at the pumps is Propane, and has been treated prior to liquefying.

Pete