Spitfire 1500 - Re-Living My Youth (RLMY)

[Pettifordo]

So fully beyond the point of no return now with the passenger floor out.

Bad rot in the bottom A post panel - so I’ve ordered some repair panels.

Not too back at the back need to decide if I patch this or get new inner sills.

Also ran out of welding gas today so no welding updates 😆😆

[Josef]

That was a terrible choice of speaker location from whoever fitted it, acoustically and car structurally!

[chrishawley]

Since you've got it all laid bare could you illuminate on a point? It's going to sound like a dumb question but hey ho.

Where the outer edge of the floor pan sits under the inner sill, are there witnesses to show what the original method of welding was? For example; is the floor pan welded twice - once horizontally to the sill stiffener through the downturned lip of the pan and again 'upwardly' to the underside of the stiffener where it turns over. It'd be helpful to know. Thnx

 

[Pettifordo]

23 hours ago, Josef said:

That was a terrible choice of speaker location from whoever fitted it, acoustically and car structurally!

I was wondering what those holes were !!! Another good reason to fit replacement panels !!

[Pettifordo]

13 hours ago, chrishawley said:

Where the outer edge of the floor pan sits under the inner sill, are there witnesses to show what the original method of welding was? For example; is the floor pan welded twice - once horizontally to the sill stiffener through the downturned lip of the pan and again 'upwardly' to the underside of the stiffener where it turns over. It'd be helpful to know. Thnx

From the initial inspection it looks like it may well be welded to the inner sill at the top and to the side…..if this is the case I was planning to do the same and weld over the old floor so I don’t risk messing up the inner / outer sill - does that would ok ?

I would make sure it was sound all the way along and patch in new metal where it isn’t - like the bit at the back.

I’ve decided that will be a practical resto project so not worried about it being original - more about make sure it is structurally sound and will last for another 40 years 👍

[chrishawley]

On 31/01/2022 at 12:42, Pettifordo said:

weld over the old floor so I don’t risk messing up the inner / outer sill - does that would ok ?

Now, I've only ever done two sills on Spitfires so I'm no expert. I know there are members who have vastly more experience and I would defer to their greater experience.

The method of reattaching the outer lip of the floor you propose has some interesting aspects. To break it down a bit: Most of the sill length is triple skinned. Layer #1- the lower edge of the outer sill, Layer #2- the sill stffener, Layer #3- the downturn lip of the floor pan.

Now, if #1, #2 and #3 were all pristine metal then attaching 'Layer #4' (replacement pan) could proceed well. But, if the spaces between #1 and #2 and between #2 and #3 (in the seams) are markedly infested with rust then when the welding torch is applied they may go to mush. In particular what one may see is like a worms head (do worms have heads?) poking out of the ground. As the weld cools it ejects a porous composite of steel, rust and dirt.

Another aspect is some thought about the integrity of the sill stiffener. Most of it can't be seen because it's sandwiched between the outer sill and the inner sill. The inner and outer can look ok but the stiffener may have dissolved along its entire lower edge. Assuming none of us  have boroscopes, a way to visualise the stiffener is to drill a few inspection holes in the inner sill and have a prod and poke.

So, for the method you suggest much depends on a fine grain inspection the areas concerned. One ruse when assessing questionable metal is to simply put the MIG torch down to it and make a blob. If it 'blobs' nicely then that indicates good metal to weld to. If is flashes up and goes to mush then it was never going to weldable in the first place.

Not sure I've expressed this very clearly. Canvas opinions widely!

[Josef]

Like Chris I’ve also only done two sills (both sides of one car) so same caveats apply, but I do agree that trying to replace the whole floor pan without removing the sills is likely to not go so well. 

My advice would’ve been ‘if your sills are genuinely good then consider if the floor really needs to come out or if it can be repaired’. But too late for that on this side at least! 
 

At this point my gut feeling is that if you have an original inner sill panel there it would be worth trying to save it and refit it, but ultimately with the floor coming out it would be best to build the sills out from the floor. I made life hard for myself by trying to keep all the outer panels in place on the first side I did while I fitted the floor. But someone else may chime in with an alternative.
 

One thing I would definitely recommend would be to remove the rear wiring loom complete before trying to do any welding near the rear of the sill! Chances of melting it otherwise are pretty high. 

[Pettifordo]

15 hours ago, Josef said:

consider if the floor really needs to come

The car has had the sills done in the past but only had the floor patch so the floor definitely needs to be changed and the sills do seem to be solid.

Good tip on the wiring loom - I was thinking that it would need to come out.

[Pettifordo]

On 01/02/2022 at 20:47, chrishawley said:

Another aspect is some thought about the integrity of the sill stiffener. Most of it can't be seen because it's sandwiched between the outer sill and the inner sill.

I’ve decided to replace the inner sill and the stiffener - I’ve come this far and by the time I patch the existing stuff it will probably be just a bit longer to replace them and this will also mean that I can inspect the inside of the outer sill and also paint this so it will be good for years to come.

Before I do that I need to add some more bracing across the bottom of the door and from A post to A post.

 

[Josef]

2 hours ago, Pettifordo said:

I’ve decided to replace the inner sill and the stiffener - I’ve come this far and by the time I patch the existing stuff it will probably be just a bit longer to replace them and this will also mean that I can inspect the inside of the outer sill and also paint this so it will be good for years to come.

Before I do that I need to add some more bracing across the bottom of the door and from A post to A post.

 

I think this is probably the best course of action. They’re relatively cheap panels after all. Depending on the condition of the inner sill it might be worth trying to save it (either by not removing it at all, or removing and refitting it) as the shape weight be better than any repro one you buy. That said I think the ones Fitchetts sell are pressed on the original tooling. The one I had from them went on very nicely, but then I had nothing original really to compare it to so…

If you remove the rest of the sills you will definitely need some better bracing than the wood that’s in your photos. What you have now will only stop movement in one direction in one dimension, and you need to worry about all directions in three dimensions! Some of the more experienced people here might have better advice about working with the body off the chassis though, I built the body to and on the chassis myself.

[Pettifordo]

16 minutes ago, Josef said:

better bracing

I have a door gaps brace already at the top of the door and I plan to weld a metal box section towards the bottom.

I also plan to weld a metal box section between the a-post and I already have one at the rear deck between the door jams.

The jig is holding the 2 front mounts at the right distance apart and the wooden beam is holding it at the right length.

Would any one recommend other bracing ?0

 

[Josef]

So from what I can see in your photos it looks like the wooden bracing is not fixed to the metalwork. That would mean it would only stop the body from moving inwards. If you cut the lower a-post off now then the upper a-post will move outwards (I had to put a ratchet strap in to pull the two a-posts together). That was what I was commenting about . Of course I may have missed something / some fixing isn’t visible in the pictures

[chrishawley]

I know you know this already but this cross section diagram is useful for keeping the front of one's mind the basic structure of sill.

It occurs to me that there are  other things to assess before removing anything else. In particular, right now, is the sill straight? To be more precise: it should be possible to put a very long straight edge on the lower lip of the sill and find it straight in both plan and elevation, from front to back. If there is marked deviation then that needs to be worked through before welding occurs. Don't rely on purely visual inspection for the sill accuracy, esp. if you wear glasses, as  they can be terribly misleading.

If you already have a replacement half floor pan is the outer, lip, edge of this straight in plan and elevation? So often repro panels are not terribly precise pressings and need 'working up' before being fitted.

Serious bracing is going to beed need before the inner sill and stiffener come out. Outer sills on their own are very bendy. Really hard to say what is exactly right for your situation but in general 'crosses are stiffer than rectangles'. For example, hypothetically, one might brace with box section from top and bottom of B post to A post. But that's not all that stiff. But go top-bottom and bottom-top and join in the middle of the 'X' is very resistant to movement. 

Given that you aiming to preserve the outer sill that gets me thinking about a suitable method for fitting a replacement A-post lower panel giving that the upper spot welded seam for this is under the sill front upper face. i.e. it's only accessible without a sill in place. Hmm can't immediately see the answer to that. ,

 

[AlanT]

This is how I braced mine. Across the gap + A to B posts + look carefully and you’ll see a link down to the middle.

All whilst on the chassis. The join in the main link allowed for adjustment.

Door gaps came out great but I still had to fiddle the windows a bit to stop them catching the frame when fully closed. So my strong advice would be to keep the glass in the doors so you can test fit before welding the inner sills (I’d stripped my doors down before which was a mistake).

Good luck! 

 

[AlanT]

Should say that this car was a particular problem since a previous owner had changed the sills and lost the gaps. The normal adjustable door brace that you can but wasn’t enough.

 

[AlanT]

And finally…don’t touch repro outer sills. I had to cut mine off and start again with proper stuff. Repro (mine were from the most well known seller) are far too narrow on the top section. 

[Badwolf]

47 minutes ago, AlanT said:

And finally…don’t touch repro outer sills. I had to cut mine off and start again with proper stuff. Repro (mine were from the most well known seller) are far too narrow on the top section. 

And that is possibly the reason for so many doors fitting badly at the bottom corner?? 

[alan.gilbert_6384]

2 hours ago, Badwolf said:

And that is possibly the reason for so many doors fitting badly at the bottom corner?? 

Not so sure about that, I had the classic sticking out lower rear corner, tried endlessly to just it, to no effect.  Found some really good doors on tinternet, which had the original skins fitted and in good shape, refurbished them and the issue went away completely.  When looking at the doors I took off, they were reskinned at some point (very good job, but its hard to replicate thousands of £ of OEM tooling by fred in his shed).  So I think it's more to do with the way the doors are reskinned, in my case anyway, before and after below 

 

8772E3CA-1429-47CD-9A0F-0E507EB2D935.heic

[Badwolf]

I suffer the same sticking out bottom of door problem, like so many others. I had assumed that it was because the body wasn't braced during the sill replacement (along with other panels). It never occurred to me that the problem could have been caused by the actual dimensions of the panels. In my ignorance, in 1984-6, I stupidly assumed that if you bought a replacement panel it would actually be the right shape!! How wrong can you be when you don't have any other reference points. No old panel to compare, due to rust. No experience of others, no forum or local meeting that I was aware of at the time. No internet/yootoob. Just the workshop manual, Haynes and various parts lists. Were these really the good old days?

[AlanT]

Yes, the ‘stick out is (at least in my experience) dodgy panels. 

[Josef]

Well, perhaps dodgy panels, but also dodgy fitting of said panels and all that lies underneath them! My Spitfire came with a huge stick out at the bottom relative to the rear wing. This was mostly cause the b-post had been repaired wrongly, and this pulled in the bottom of the wing/rear sill in far enough to affect the fit of the door. I spent aaaages going back and forth, cutting and adjusting this part with a NOS Rover sill and BMH rear wing to get the door to fit nicely (having first rebuilt the door). My rebuild of the b-post I suspect is still a few mm inboard of where it should be (I had bugger all available to reference though so not unhappy there really - the door fit looks good therefore it is good).

[Colin Lindsay]

13 hours ago, Josef said:

Well, perhaps dodgy panels, but also dodgy fitting of said panels and all that lies underneath them!

True - the panels are often wrong, but many restorers follow the seam-to-seam fitment thinking that all will line up when it's done, and of course it doesn't. I've been told by those that know to get the panels in line first, so that the visible lines are perfect, then correct what's in behind and out of sight.

[Josef]

9 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

True - the panels are often wrong, but many restorers follow the seam-to-seam fitment thinking that all will line up when it's done, and of course it doesn't. I've been told by those that know to get the panels in line first, so that the visible lines are perfect, then correct what's in behind and out of sight.

This is what I learned and why my Spitfire’s LHS is much better than the RHS! I did the right first, and did do some ‘just weld it on as the panel must be right’ which was then hard to recover from.

[Pettifordo]

Today I have welded in some more strengthening bars before I cut out the inner sills. I’ve also decided to not weld the floor to the bulk head until the car is back on the chassis so if I need to make any fine adjustment then can be done at that point. I’m also going to wait to attach the 2 cross members until we are back on the chassis so I can make sure these line up.

I’ve done it this way instead of doing the work in the chassis as the rollover jig makes welding / cutting so much easier also I’m not removing the outer sills as these and the rear wings are both sound having been replaced before.

I starting to cut out the lower A-post today and figure out how to fit the closing panel at the end of the sill.

Does anyone have any advice about how to fit the closing panel and the lower A-panel and attach it to the bulk head ?

Which ever way round I have the panels it doesn’t seem to line up right - but I could also have been an end of day things 🤣🤣

It is going to take a good few weekends to get just one side sorted and then I have to do the other one 😩😩😩

Some other good news this week is that I sourced a new steering column with an ignition key !! So that problem is solved - hopefully useful in 2024 !!

[Pettifordo]

Good progress today.

Sill closing panel and A-post repair panel fitted.

Also stripped out the inner sill and strengthener - the strengthener had rotten at the bottom is a couple of places so glad I decided to do this - I don’t think it will take me long to fit the new ones and then I can get back to the floor which is where I started !!
 

Then on to the next side 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️p