Herald 13/60 Resto + Auto Conversion

[Richeee]

Well here goes after introducing myself earlier, sat here in dark.  Storm Eunice has taken out the overhead lines, Well candle light and an LED camping light thought I had better start my resto thread.

Have had a 13/60 Herald since 2009 and its been in storage in many places.   My brother had it befor me for 10 years.   Basket case. Neither him or myself have ever seen it properly assembled. The tub and bulkhead just resting on the chassis and bits everywhere.   Some work was started and abandoned but now now time has come for it to be started again.   It was its turn.   My landrover I had restored was sold and a new project was required.

So in Sept 21 it was dragged out of storage in my back garden.

 

Bits and pieces were dragged from boxs and out of my garage roof.  

Something like 4 doors for a 2 door car.    My brother and i had been collecting over the years.  And work began.

TBC.    

Edited January 25 by Richeee
Title Change

[Richeee]

CONTINUED....

In the mean time , my friend who had aquired an abandoned Herald convertible from round the back of an old Conservative club in Southampton decided it was surplus to requirements and it would be available befor it returned by natural degredation to the earhs elements from which Triumph first made it.

A price was agreed and it became a donor car.    The only thing is that it might just be more of a reference piece for me than a donor. As with it being complete it shows me where all the bits should go.

It was collected and now sits on my drive under a blue tarp.

TBH I prefer automatics and am getting a bit creaky, one pedal for stop and 1 for go, with one arm around a good or even bad woman,  and had the crazy idea to fit a triumph based automatic gearbox.    

Research followed and knew there would have to be chassis alterations and thought the Dolomite 1500 would fit best with Borg Warner 65.

Oh well in for a penny in for a pound and a engine and gearbox was sourced of ebay.   It was packaged by a very nice man on a pallet and delivered. Unpacked and assembled, offered into place to see what the clash would be.

 

Hmmmm   quite a bit.

TBC

[Colin Lindsay]

38 minutes ago, Richeee said:

The only thing is that it might just be more of a reference piece for me than a donor. As with it being complete it shows me where all the bits should go.

Good thinking! I have a reference engine and am always comparing nuts and bolts, plus assembly order, to the one I'm working on; a complete car is worth a dozen manuals.

[Richeee]

CONTINUED.

I am sure the early marcos cars had timber chassis but could be wrong. Normally am.   And that Morgans use a timber frame, so why not me.   Not really but did have some timber lying around that could be used for test purposes.   

This gave me the basis of an idea to strengthen the rails before chopping bits out. This i then replaced with 80 x 80 x3 box sections which i welded into place.   Very agriculturally.   Very apt being a farmers boy.   My welds consist of lots of welding. Normally to much followed by grinding.

 

This was followed by more box sections to the other rail, and the area of the original rail to be removed marked up.   After which the engine hoist was used to flip the chassis over.

Once flipped over the underside of the box sections could be welded, and groung and welded and ground and still look rough.    

The original rails were cut out. But not completely as the outside face of both original rails actually remains welded to 5he side of the new box sections.   

I was always concerned that the original  rails were cut and although the new box sections welded to the outside edge and to the front and middle outriggers was probably strong enough decided to weld 4 new cover plates from the front original rails, over the new box sections and on to the rear rails where it meets the center cross members. This was 2 mm plates, drilled with multiple 10mm holes for plug welding to the rails and box below and to the outriggers. Thers wee also continuously welded around the external edge.  

Resulting in a finished chassis.

Yes those with a high deff screen will see my rough welds.   But again these will smoothed down as work progress,s.    My intention is to do the syructural alterations to footwells  , bulkheads   etc as required. Redo the wings and rust repairs. Rebuild the engine. Check the gearbox. Try out structural automotive adhesives on the non structural panels.      ( opening a new can of worms there ) and then revisit all elements cosmetically.

Temporarily fitted the engine and gearbox this morning befor the power went and pleased to say that there is enough clearance.

Aso placed the bulkhead in position to see the cladh that would now ensue from the reduced footwell space.   Need to break open.my new plasma cutter from lidl.

Thats up to date from Sept till now.

Tbh was thinking of posting earlier but wanted to make sure i was not wasting my time before i did so.  

As i progress i will update. But hopefully in smaller chunks.

TBC

 

Richard

[Richeee]

Hi. 

Bit of work over the weekend and today.   Hoping to update this thread as i move on. Did up date my introductory thread with a couple off photos which i shall repeat in this one and then just use this thread.    Another forum im on gets quite funny if you post things in the wrong place.    😅  

Hopefully you guys dont worry so much when i get things wrong.  

Over the weekend i sprayed with a paint can from underneath to indicate on the bulk head floor where the chassis rails clashed.  This i then cut out.    Then cut out again a bit bigger until the bulkhead would sit down properly.   Im trying to keep the flange for the gear box cover to sit on as i dont really want to alter the cover if i have to.   It will be a fibreglass new one but still dont want to alter if possible.

Off course i had to pull up a chair and try it for size. And se how my size 10s will fit.

New floors will have to be made. But whilst waiting for some new sheet steel to be delivered i bolted down the bulkhead for trial and was reasonably pleased.   Only two bolt holes need a tad of easing And sermed to sit well on one rubber each.

As its a second hand engine and gearbox thought it would be a good idea to try the engine and see if it could be got to run.  Couple of hours has it spinning and oil , new , seeping from the rockers so pumps working.   Have sparks from a temp electrics , but the fuel pump not working. 

I then lost a hour of my life reading up on short and long arm fuel pumps.  Anyway one relating to engine number , late 1500, has been ordered.    

Looks like work will get in the way for a few days but will be back.

 

TO BE CONTINUED.

[Josef]

Did you have enough of the bits you cut from the floorpan left to maybe slide them outboard and retain the shape of the footwell, albeit narrowed to suit your chassis mods? If you see what I mean?

[Richeee]

I do, have the bits i cut out, and yes they will slide across a bit but more steel will still be required.  Especially as i had first cut them out a tight fit and then cut another 40mm rip out to allow for brake and fuel pipes on passenger side.  

Tbh i will take measurements , take the bulkhead off and place on a table and set to work. See what happens.    There is a plan in my mind but theres only room in there for a simple idea.    I will you  posted.   

[Richeee]

Time for an update .

I had finished off on my last update with the bulkhead  temp bolted in place with the floor cut.    I was waiting for steel and a sheet metal bender to be delivered.  

So I had a go at getting the 2nd hand 1500 Dolomite engine running.    Tried jerry rigging some wiring and had the engine turning over with oil pumping out the rockers.   No luck with the original fuel pump and had ordered a new one.    

Well with a electric pump i had fuel to the carbs but although had a spark could not get it to fire.    Was going to strip the engine anyway back to a short block anyway so no great shakes. 

Steel was delivered and so was a sheet bender.   A basic one but for the few I needed was adequate.

 

Why Measure twice and cut once when you can measure once and cut twice.   Twice the fun.

Got it right second time.

Bit of welding , cutting, underseal and red zinc primer later.

Then temporarily bolted back onto the chassis to check for clearance and stupid mistakes.

 

And from underneath...

All seems to fit Ok with clearance for the brake and fuel pipes.   Have yet thought to form holes for the pipes in the outriggers.   Will wait until i install the brake lines in a year or 5 depending on how things go.

Now to think about the rear gearbox mount.  The borg warner had a different mount to the rear of the 13/60 herald box.   Fortunately i had one with the box and so after fiddling and cutting had it basically in place.

However the final fixing in place will have to wait till a later time until the prop shaft situation has been sorted.   A company local to me can adapt / build prop shafts but need to get the one out of the garage roof to see how the original compares to the length i now require.  The final height of the mount needs to be determined later.

 

So that is basically up to date with progress.     Now begins the long slog of the bulkhead, rear tub and bonnet restoration.         

Got to strip back to bare metal, cut out he rot and let in new pieces wings etc.  

I will be busy......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Richeee
duplicate photos

[Richeee]

Been a few weeks since I updated this , life , work,  1/2 acre of garden to look after, broken compressor pressure switch but have progressed.   

From my other threads you see I was asking about paint removal and acid dipping of the tub, bulkhead etc.  

Decided in end to go ahead with having the tub etc ,  dipped and primed.  will be at the end of May.

Now to get the various bits ready for collection.

The inner front wings have already rusted and fallen off. So no worries there in the tank.  

Removed all the bonnet trim , headlights etc.

Sourced some new old stock front wings which will also go to be dipped.   As well as some 2nd hand fibreglass valances which may not get used.

Stripped the boot lid of trim , number light etc.  It was not a 13/60 item as wrong number plate light and it had separate lettering on the boot.   Can anyone confirm if the metal pressings are the same.? i.e if the boots are the same. apart from number plate lights and lettering.?

When removing the inner bracing the screws holding it on appear to have pulled through the boot metal work leaving over sized holes Presumably this happens to a lot as the boot is opened and shut?   

Presumably i will have to weld up and re drill. 

 

Started work on the doors today.   First time i had stripped a door like this. Land rover door with sliding glass has nothing on these.

After a few hours.   And work with a finger file to weaken the wrapped around door skin on the edges.

Ready for dipping.

And bits to squirrel away in garage roof.

 

Got the quarter light removed eventually , and rest of window winders etc but how do you get the bits assembled with decorated doors with out scratching. Oh well perhaps assemble and decorate afterwards?  That's a job probably for another year however.

One last question.   There was a metal rod, coat hanger type , that appeared to go from the front glass rail to the rear.  But I did not notice until i had remover the rear glass rail to get the door lock out.   Does it hook around the rear glass rail to keep them taught or is it for something else i don't understand.?  Photo of it laying on top in its approx position.

I lied, another question.    There was aplastic sheet tucked into the bottom glass rail and then tucked under one of the weather strips. Seems a strange configuration.   Normally see them on the inside just under the door panel.    How do you guys assemble yours?  

To be continued.

[NonMember]

The metal rod does hook onto the runners - it's described in the WSM.

The plastic sheet hangs from the drop glass on the outside of the mechanism, so that water which gets past the weather strip then runs down the plastic and out of the drain holes at the bottom, without getting all over the door internals.

[Josef]

With possible exceptions for early cars having some detail differences, the boot lid panels should all be the same. If you need photos / measurements for badge positions to suit the 13/60 then just shout!

[Richeee]

37 minutes ago, NonMember said:

The metal rod does hook onto the runners - it's described in the WSM.

The plastic sheet hangs from the drop glass on the outside of the mechanism, so that water which gets past the weather strip then runs down the plastic and out of the drain holes at the bottom, without getting all over the door internals.

Thank you.   Yes the rod is shown clearly in the manual.   Just looked at it.  I must buy another copy of it to keep in the garage and get mucky.  Try to keep the one i've got clean in doors.  

The plastic sheet.   Mine appaered to be caught under the external weather strip.   This might just have been an accident. Which is a bit why i asked.

I can see that if it just hung down from the bottom glass channel on the outside it would work effectively.

Thanks.

[Richeee]

21 minutes ago, Josef said:

With possible exceptions for early cars having some detail differences, the boot lid panels should all be the same. If you need photos / measurements for badge positions to suit the 13/60 then just shout!

Thanks . I will do.   I will also consult Mikes excellent book.   Temporarily misplaced but know its not far away.  

[Richeee]

The death of of my mother followed by my sister a couple of weeks ago means progress has been slow. 

Also waiting for bodywork to be collected for chemical dipping.    However did find time to remove the head off the 1500 my herald is recieving and pleasently surprised.  Bores not bad bad and not much of a noticeable ridge.  Then spent a whole day removing all traces of old head gasket that had manage to magically blend itself into the head and block.   Keeping it well damp and soaking with oil and wd40 to stop any nasty fibres from the gasket getting airbourne.  

Will inspect crank and big end bearings but will, if all is ok as i suspect,  replace bearings and rings etc with standard size. But thats for another day.  

Did manage to pick up boot floor today from an ebay seller, surplus to his requirements.    Mine has holes already and may well be lace when it returns from its bath. Not sure if i will fit complete or cut to obtain areas that i need.  Time will tell. 

TBC.

[Richeee]

Boy does time past.   Hopefully life calming down a bit, Still having to sort out two lots of probate, one for the remnants of the family farm, and one for my sister who has a reasonable if complicated will, needing to be split between 15 beneficiaries, so have appointed solicitors as need to be squeaky clean.  

Anyway back to triumph land.   

The tub, bulkhead, bonnet, boot lid, two NOS front wings and two door frames went off yesterday to be dipped.

 

Have taken detailed photos of the panels and when they return  (possibly dust in an envelope)   I will do a before and after comparison, for your amusement. 

In the meantime i removed the old rear suspension temporarily and with a heat gun to try and keep dust levels down , have been removing layers of old paint off the chassis.   Looks like hammarite , over black bitumastic over the original white.    De-rusting where necessary and then brushed on Rustbuster FE-123 converter.  This appears to leave a black film and the idea is for this to be the temp coating while i undertake the dry fitting and welding that will be required to all the body panels etc.   When I'm happy with all the fit and panel gaps to doors bonnet tub etc and that I have enough clearance all around the auto box etc will remove all the sections before another de-rust and painting.    The rough rear suspension has now been refitted whilst I now work on the front of the chassis de-rusting etc.

Had a good luck round Beaulieu Autojumble the weekend before last,   Cooked breakfast under a tree in the carpark on both days before a leisurely 9 mile walk as recorded by mates son's phone.  Managed to pick up a new door skin from Guy's stall .  Go the autojumble twice a year as only live 15miles away and am a friend of the place.   Free entry being the best benefit and their  excellent monthly talks in the winter.    Have a look on their website.  

also picked up some looms off ebay. Not totally sure about them , and or whether i buy new or make my own as I did on my landrover 2a  . Time will tell. Possibly a useful supply of coded wire at least.

That's it for this report. Sorry for spelling etc. 

 

Will update when panels are returned on the 14th, and I place a big order at the shop..........

 

 

 

[steveo]

Well done keeping it together with the loss of 2 family members, I know what you are going through, few years back halfway into a Chevrolet Camaro restoration my mum passed away, dad went mad & ended up in the local funny farm, I had to arrange the funeral & sell the house ( where I kept the Camaro ) and sort out long term care for dad.

Did finish it but had to sell it as nowhere to keep it, things do get better with time, keep up the good work, looks better than my 13/60 ! 

[Richeee]

Just had a knock.on the door.   My brother who I got my basket case off 10 years ago.     I could not invite him in because at half term i picked up covid somewhere.

But any way said would i like some herald bits that were in his way.   Of course  i said yes and he left this lot on my donor car.

2 sills complete with metal tangs to fix to chassis. 2 door repair bottoms. 2 outriggers. 1 side rail , grill and steering column.

Not bad straight out of the blue.

[PeteH]

Fairy Godfather?. Could do with more of those! in Triumph Land.

Pete

[Richeee]

Managed after long ebay trawls to locate a Dolomite automatic gear selector and a cover / tray.

It will marrying to a fibreglass tunnel and some hidden support for the lever but not in surmountable.

Just be a bit of head scratching.   A job not for now but probably 12 months or so time.

 

 

[Richeee]

Right today the tub, body, Bonnet, door frames , boot lid and 2 NOS wings came back from Enviro strip.    

Not as bad as i feared and really gets it clean, and with the Novol weld through primer gives a nice base to work from.

Will let the pictures tell the story.   Some panels such as rear wings are not as bad as i anticipated and I now have the dilemma of whether to replace or not.  The flanges have Gone but not bad, do i just try and repair the return flanges or replace the entire panel.  Removing the panel would give better access to repair the inner arches and then replace.   Decisions.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Josef]

That’s all looking pretty decent really! It’ll be nice to have no surprises as you go along too.

[PeteH]

That is in a lot better condiion that my 13/60 was, I had to replace most of the outer tub cills and floors. In fact I used a full 8x4 sheet of steel in the process, and into my second one!, fabricating large area`s of paneling. Constucting the wheel arch repair sections, was to say the least "interesting".

Pete

[Chilliman]

The good thing about the Enviro Strip process is that it lets you see everything clearly in order to access what needs to be done & you can work your way around gradually replacing the bad bits, I've got a complete tub & panels with them now.

John

[Richeee]

Good luck for yours.  You will have to post some pics.

I can now see the good and bad points.  Clean primered metal.

Started on a couple of holes yesterday. The primer is deffinetly weld through and the mig made a contact nicely.

[Richeee]

Over the last couple of days started work on the bulkhead and tub.    The bulkhead had not suffered to bad from being dipped.    There are two small holes on the windscreen gutters.   They are small , but just trying to build up courage to attack them with the welder. As thin and i don't want to burn big holes.   When I've got my hand and eye back in will give it a go.   Also where the heater box fits on is an area of dissolved rust.   The same applies.

Couple of small holes in the floor have been welded.   Amazing that a small pin prick hole quickly becomes bigger,  especially with welding skills. And the rear flanges that connect to the tub patched.

To be fait though the bulkhead was in amazingly good condition.

Attention then turned to the rear tub.   Placed on a couple of scaffold board stands decided to start at the front and work to the rear.  Starting with the tread plates for which i had a couple of NOS panels.   These appeared to be twice the thickness of the original panels and must have been meant to replace the double skin tread plates with one panel.

As always my welding is agricultural.

That's if for today.   Tomorrow i hope to attack the offside treadplate and the tub flange that connects to the bulkhead.

 

Question.  The A posts on the Bulkhead have been dipped with the rest, and so now have no internal protection.    On the chassis etc my protection of choice is waxoyl.  But in the A posts and other areas think something that dry's out would be suitable.   What do you guys suggest would be suitable and how to apply.