Bond Equipe stalls when pulling away

[johnnyj]

Hi all

 

My Bond Equipe 2L MKII has always run well, but recently has developed a fault. Having got it out of the garage for the first time this year and put in fresh fuel, I took it for a 10 mile spin. It ran fine until I tried to pull away from a stand-still at a junction, then it died half way across the road (not much fun at a major cross roads with big lorries hurtiling towards you!).

 

The car then wouldn't start for about 5 minutes, after which it would run fine again for about 10 minutes, but stalling again at junctions as above.

 

I can't think what could be wrong, although in the back of my mind is the fact that the fuel level was empty before I re-filled it, so I wonder if some muck from the empty tank was sucked up into the carbs. Another clue (possibly irrelevant) might be that I had just washed the car, and then it started raining whilst on the run.

 

Incidentally I am running SU HS6s on the Bond, which were brand new about 5 years ago.

 

I hope someone might be able to help!

 

All the best

 

John

 

 

[Pete Lewis]

this may be the old nutshell of debris in the supply line floats about and blocks the back of the float needle valve

 

also if youve wash and wetted have a look at the ht termnals in the coil (no green stuff inside) and the dizzy cap

 

look inside the cap for moisture.

 

stale fuel does give some troubles ,but its never haunted me yet.

 

point gaps ?

 

and engine oil in the dashpots , no weedy stuff in these 

 

make sure the choke returns and the jets return to contact   their adjusting nuts,   ( give choke a pull/push and poke jet with finger ) and if they stick open it runs rich and hot starts ...wont 

 

Pete

[johnnyj]

Thanks Pete. I replaced the points today, as they looked quite pitted. I also blew the needle valves in the float chambers (and everything else in the carbs) through with air, cleaned up the inner dizzy etc so I'll take her on a run tomorrow and see what happens. I think in the meantime I'll order a new condensor and coil, just for good measure.

 

All the best

 

John

[Pete Lewis]

Some condensers sold are complete rubbish, , like there is nothing much inside the can

the things give peculiar faults with running , as theres no buffering to give the pionts a good snap,

in the old days it was easy ,, idles but bangs and backfires when revved was condenser,

 

the latest offerings give all odd misfires and stops.

 

its worth checking the coil polarity is correct, whatever the battery earth is the dizzy line

ie neg earth, coil neg to dizzy,

 

pete

[SRF]

I vote for condenser, if you change the points you should change the condenser as well.  I have gone electronic on the last 5 classics I have owned.  Just one thing get the car running ok before switching to electronic. 

[johnnyj]

Hi everyone and thanks for all the input. Here's an update:

 

I blew the carbs through with compressed air, then changed the coil, condensor and points. It took me a while to do this job (hence the gap in replying) because stupidly I decided to change the thermostat at the same time, due to everything getting rather hot. I say "stupidly" because of course the bolts in the thermostat housing were seized solid and sheered off in the water pump housing. A new water pump housing, various hoses and many flushes of brown rusty water later, I now at least have control of the running temperatures. Amazing how a quick and well-meant job, which should have cost about a fiver, can turn into hours and hours of swearing and a big parts bill. But that's oldies (the cars I mean, not my age) for you!!

 

Back to the original problem. It still didn't run right and was backfiring on the over-run, so I suspected the timing. Using a strobe I checked the timing and found it to be out, so adjusted that a few degrees by turning the dizzy. It made it a bit better, so I then moved onto the carbs which I have never been able to get right despite them being for all intents and purposes brand new. I followed the standard procedure for a "blank canvas" reset and got the mixtures about right plus the two SUs sucking about the same, but just as I was about to adjust the mixtures to bring the idle down to accaptable levels the engine just stopped and won't now start again.

 

Now I am in the horrible place where I don't know if it is timing or carbs, and which to do first. I am thinking of starting with the valve timing, then setting up the ignition timing, then the carbs. Oh, I will change the plugs, leads and dizzy cap for good measure.

 

But it seems odd to me that the car just stopped like that, which is what it did when out on the road at the start of all this. I am starting to wonder about fuel pump issues.

 

Anyway, there you have it - I hope the update gives some clues and isn't too much of a mammouth read.

 

By the way, if anyone knows of a good old-fashioned Triumph tuning expert who would be willing to come and help me in Northants, I'd be ever so grateful!

 

ALl the best

 

John

[Pete Lewis]

If it ran then stopped dont get carried away changing everything, the chance is it still wont start

 

if doubting the fuel pump remove pipe to carb and crank over should get a decent squirt into a jar.

 

check the leads to the coil are clean, the pionts have note closed or then insulator post is not mis placed

check you getbaspark at the plugs

check no debris is blocking the backside of the float needle

check dizzy plate earth is intact

check coil polarity neg to dizz pos to ignition feed.

look inside coil ht terminal for green stuff.

 

 

Pete

[johnnyj]

Thanks Pete, I'll try all of that and see how I go.

 

The insulator post is a hot contender - I am not sure it is correctly assembled. From the bottom up I have a nylon "top hat" washer facing upwards into the spring, then another on top facing downwards. On top of that I have the condensor and LT leads, then a washer, then the nut.

 

Cheers

 

John

[Pete Lewis]

The leads from the coil and condenser must be under the top hat not above it

 

they need to contact the points spring and the top hat isolates all tree from the post with the nut on

 

so from bottom up top hat , point spring eye, two wires on eyelets , top hat , washer, nut

 

pete

[johnnyj]

Hi Pete

 

I checked the leads yesterday and actually they were correct. What did happen, however, was the rotor arm fell apart under the dizzie cap when I turned the engine over - I mean totally disintegrated. I have had this before, so luckily had a spare. Putting that on got the car started.

 

Anyway, the car started and after much carb tuning ran beautifully at idle. A quick road test however showed that it was horrible under load, at low revs. It is all "fluffy" when you try to pull away, and you have to slip the clutch to get any traction otherwise it stalls. Yet on the drive it revs smoothly up the rev range and sounds nice.

 

When tuning the carbs, I have noticed that the method of using the piston lifter to check for correct mixture (i.e. listen for a momentary rise or fall in revs) is really inconclusive. The left hand SU in particular can appear to run nicely but then cause the car to almost stall when the piston is raised in this way.

 

Something else I have noticed, as I started to think about ignition timing. The Rev Counter has never worked in my car, and I discovered that it is because the dizzie doesn't have a cable take-off point (the cable to the gauge is just lying around disconnected in the engine bay). That gave me a vague recollection of a previous owner saying something about (and I don't remember which) the car having either a dizzie or entire engine out of a Triumph 2000. Some T2000s had that strip-style speedo and no rev counter, as I recall. Not sure if that might be why I can never get the car to run right on Vitesse-spec settings?

 

I am thinking of putting in electronic ignition, preferably one of those PowerSpark complete distributor jobbies. The only issue is that I am not sure if they have a rev-counter take-off, either.

 

Anyway, any ideas much appreciated!

 

Cheers

 

John

[Pete Lewis]

only the delco and a few rare lucas have the cable drive on the dizzy pedestal,

set the timing to 10deg static 

 

you only lift the piston a couple of mm,  just  a touchy feely job,  oik it up  to much and it will stall,  youre only looking for a 50 rpm hint of change in rpm  nothing dramatic

 

set both needles 2 turns down from flush with the bridge,  then adjust 1/4 turn ata atime till she runs sweet.

 

no gadgets or special anything  just use  the ears ,  easy to see its getting better or worse  with the  air cleaners On

check no gasket obstructs any front face ports .and both have the same springs ....do you know what springs are fitted ???

 

 

engine oil in the dash pots , and make sure choke returns the jets to the nuts 

[johnnyj]

Thanks Pete, that is invaluable info. Just wondering where the rev counter cable should screw into, if it is not the dizzy?

 

I didn't know that the piston lifers are just a 2mm job, so I'll try that. Also I'll set the timing to 10 deg BTDC static.

 

When you say set the needles to 2 turns below the bridge, do you mean the jets? Sorry to be dim.

 

Also, which springs do you mean? The throttle return springs, or the springs in the dashpots?

 

Cheers

 

John

[Pete Lewis]

Yes sorry jets , down doesnt matter if its 2 or 3 turns down just gives you equal starting point

 

same with throttles , get them fully closed and open each equal a ounts with idle screw about 1.5 turns from just making contact

 

springs in dash pots these get changed for stronger to give richer running when on pancake filters etc

The rev cable can oly screw into the dizzy base as its a lucas you wont have one so its redundant

 

rev count will need to be ellectronic or change the the correct dizzy

 

if that helps

 

pete

[johnnyj]

Thanks Pete. I did spend some time on the car yesterday, resetting the static timing to 10 degrees BTDC. It ran much better after that, although the fluffy flat spot has now moved so that it occurs in low revs in fourth. One thing I noticed is that the Haynes Manual says the rotor arm should point to number one cylinder when that cylinder is on its compression stroke. But it doesn't - when the timing marks are correctly lined up and the number one cyclinder is on its compression stroke, the rotor arm points towards the coil, which is about 45 degrees out. Is that a clue?

 

I also spent some time setting up the carbs as you suggest, and it really sounds sweet now at idle. It pulls away smoothly (not like before), but as I say tends to pop in the later rev range on the move.

 

The SUHS6s are running individual trumpets with foam "socks" as filters, but I don't know if the springs were changed. I did notice another thing, however. When stationary, when you rev it up and then take your foot off the throttle the revs fall too low for a few seconds and it nearly stalls. Then it picks back up to a normal RPM idle. If I remove the dampers from the dashpots, this doesn't happen. Too much spring damping?

 

It is much, much better but something still isn't right.

 

Thanks for all your help

 

John

[Pete Lewis]

ah ha , now a picture tells a lot of words

 

   the  smiths emmission valve must be upright  i doubt the weeny spring will keep it central inside,  and oil  pass over /drain back is restricted

 

    running a 2ltr on HS6  +Trumpets is a bit hybrid so data is sparse

 

  triumph tune implies HS6 on KN = needle    BAM /BDB     yellow damper spring   auc 1167  

 

having no air filter to aid jet fuel atomisation is I reckon thats where most of your troubles are coming from ..  a   lack of primary induction vacuum

 

stick a filter box on and it may may a world of difference 

 

Pete

[johnnyj]

That's interesting Pete, thank you. I have had a look through my paperwork and unfortunately the receipt for the carbs (which were new/exch) a couple of years ago doesn't say which springs or needles they have fitted. So I'll order what you suggest and see how we do.

 

As regards the air filter arrangement, as you can see in the picture below I do run it with foam filters, so perhaps a different type of sock might help.

 

I don't know which air box would fit as presumably the distance between the carbs is different from vehicle to vehicle so the holes in the box wouldn't line up with the holes in the carbs. I do have a garage full of TR7 spares however so I'll try a '7 airbox and filter. Of course, I could just take the SUs off the Bond and use them on my TR7 restoration when the time comes, and buy a pair of original Strombergs for the Bond.

 

I did have a pair of K&Ns on them a while back, and had the same problems.

 

Thanks for the heads up on the Smiths valve - I didn't know that, so I'll re-plumb it so it is upright!

 

Thanks again for all your help, I'll keep you posted.

 

All the best

 

John

[Pete Lewis]

the yellow spring is a bed spring rather than the  usual slinky spring 

 

why not pull a needle see whats on it , just a twiddle with a screwdriver and off with the top and remove the needle screw , its spec number is stamped on the  fixing end

 

then we know whats inside ,,

 

Pete 

[johnnyj]

Good idea. Watch this space...

[johnnyj]

Hi Pete

 

The needles in the carbs are BDM, but I can't tell what type the springs are. Do you think having BDMs fitted, rather than BAM /BDB would make much of a difference?

 

I have re-mounted the Smiths emission valve so it is now upright, and changed the hoses for good measure. Likewise I have changed the rubber fuel hoses around the fuel rail and to the main metal fuel pipe, as at least one of them had cracks which went right through.

 

Anyhow, I had another go yesterday at the timing and carbs. The car runs beautifully, with more power and smoother delivery. However there is still a nasty flatspot under load at, say, 35mph when accelerating. It coughs and pops but only under load/heavy acceleration. If I can cure this, I reckon it is solved.

 

Cheers

 

John

[Pete Lewis]

i have anumber on SU spec manuals , they all say different spec , 

 

from an old one BDM is TR4

 

for a 2000 it shows    hs4  AS  ABL or   hs6  AS  BCY  ( but thats for the big saloon )  ( same basic engine)

 

to see the profiles stick the letters into   mintylamb      http://www.mintylamb.co.uk/suneedle/

 

 

but air flow from a 4 pot TR4 is quite different to a 6pot 

 

you may now be on the right idea's 

 

regards  Pete

[johnnyj]

Hmmm. Lots to think about there Pete. I'm not sure what to do with the needles, although the graphs produced in that chart you sent me look great. The problem is that I don't know what the graph line should look like for my car. Maybe it is trial and error, or worth a chat with a carb specialist or even a dyno session. I'd still like to find a Triumph carb/tuning expert in Northants. By the way, I have a pile of TR7 SU HS6s from TR7s in my shed and I took one to bits today and had a look at the needles. They were BDM, too.

 

So, it strikes me that BDMs are common to the Triumph slant four running HS6s, but as you say on a 6-pot it might be very different. I wonder if anyone else reading has any ideas?

 

I am tempted to find a pair of original Strombergs and fit them, and keep the SUs for my TR7 restoration.

 

Anyway, thanks again and here is a pic now that the pipes and Smiths valve have been tidied up.

 

Cheers

 

John

[Pete Lewis]

The only triumph spec that ran HS6 and 2000 6pot was the 2000TC which comes back to BCY ?

It then you need to compensate for the stacks and socks

 

Going standard is easy , all tried and tetsted

if you fancy a run to sunny luton I can set up most but wont be reprofiling needles unlees theres no altrrnative

 

I will have alook on minty later and try to give some clues

 

where, s me slippers!!!

 

Pete