A TR7 16V

No its not GT6, it's a Herald 13/60 circuit diagram. The attached corrects the error for the operation of the relays off the flash switch - I realize why I made that in basing this mod on the one in the Sprint, because that has the master light switch in the column housing as well, so the feed up there is permanently live. It does now also take the load of the master switch, which could be an advantage. So I need to look closely at the connectors for the feed into the back of the master light switch. But I'm assuming I'll be able to split off there with a piggyback Lucar, putting the female of the new lead on the switch spade and putting the female feed onto the male spade on the piggyback Lucar. I think the piggies I have will take a fat enough wire to feed the lights, i.e. the same weight as the output from the master switch. If not, I may have to lash out on some fatter ones. Graham

Needs revising for the flash I think. It wants the relays supplied off the other side of the light switch, from the brown and blue wire off the fuse box. Graham

I had a look under the dash and such. For me, the obvious place to insert the connections to the new relays is into the bullet connectors at the bottom ends of the column switch wiring. I know that won't suit all, but it does what I want. So, Here's the wiring diagram as it should be when the relays are installed (though not all the connections to the Radio/USB player are in). The issues are that both relays have wires of the same colour going to different pins. It also needs the dual bullet connector on the brown and red feed from the master light switch swapping for a triple. It should (other than where I've put fuse 11, which is not relevant) follow the convention of showing where the bullet connectors are as near as possible. I will be soldering the bullets on the wires to the relays, because I don't have a crimp tool that does them - if anyone has a cost effective solution to crimping them I'm interested - and that's all doable out of the car. There's no mods needed to the car wiring, other than breaking the connectors and replacing the aforementioned dual for a triple one, and finding an earth for the relay coils. Graham

I don't think it's a difficult mod whatever you choose to do. The main issue you have to decide on is whether you want the car to look largely the same and just want to get rid of the problems with the load on the switch, or whether you want even more of the lights, like make the very most of the 55 Watt bulbs possible, or go to higher wattage bulbs. Both making the best of the 55s and fitting higher wattage bulbs needs upgraded wires from the relays to the bulb connectors and the earths from the bulbs to the chassis (I've a memory that the earths are a bit thin already). The former mod, largely hidden under the dash, is what I intend to fit. I can certainly photo-document that as I go, if there's any interest. I guess I can look at putting the relays as near the battery as possible, so that the losses in the runs down to the lights can be minimized either with the existing wires or additional, higher capacity wires. The limit is probably that I don't want to open the loom up. I'm not totally averse to cutting the wires if I must, but I would like to find somewhere I can insert the relays at bullet connectors. I'm guessing that means putting the relays more on the driver's side, which adds a few feet to the run from the supply to the relays and from them to the lights. So I know I need to go look at the options. Graham

BTW, in reducing the loss or feeding higher power lamps it makes no difference if the relays are by the battery or by the headlights. It's the resistance between the battery and the bulb that matters, not which side of that you put the switch. Graham

Exactly. There a low excitation current through the coil in the electro magnet of a few hundred milliamps max (50 to 100 Ohms at 12 to 14V). And that switches nearly as much load current as you like - 40 Amp relays are cheap enough and could supply power to over 400 Watts of lighting. I'd want a bigger safety margin than that on a road car, but 200 Watts should be fine. Mind you, you'd want some fat cables for that 40 Amps. Graham

Relays on there own won't do much to make the lights brighter, it's using thicker cable to power the lights and shortening the run lengths that makes the difference. Perhaps as much as 10 percent with 2 x 55 Watt lamps going from 15 foot of 18awg (about 1 volt drop) to 8 foot of 12awg (about 0.13 V drop) . The other big advantage is that you can fit and feed much higher wattage lights, which I wouldn't trust the current (lol) cable to do. But I don't want brighter lights. On the Sprint, I wanted to stop replacing the flasher switch every 5 minutes, cos its a bitch of a job. As to how much does it cost to just insert two relays in the existing feeds: If you have to buy it all, the 12awg wire's like a quid a meter; UI spades are like 10 or 12p each in 10/20s; and 40 Amp relays are a couple each. The big cost is probably in the ratchet crimp tool. But I'd argue that's a very worthwhile expense if you're gonna take on much electrical work on the car. I already have that, and the lucars, relays, and wire, in the box o' bits. So I'd save the whole tenner. But even if you may not save much money using a kit, where's the challenge and the buzz in doing it right? Also I think it's a thing best hidden away neatly under the dash. But I know that's personal preference. Graham

My reason is that switching the current to feed the mains is doing the fourtyoddyearold toggle switch up the column no good at all. Whereas, one of these relays does the switching remotely, so the load on the switch in the column is small, possibly just milliamps. A kit as shown can also take the load off wiring loom, which matters if you want bigger better lights (like what I don't) - the existing wire's a bit thin for very many amps, will heat up because of its resistance, and lose power that should, otherwise, be shining out the front. Graham

Well the mods under the dash, as I outlined for future on the Herald, don't need a kit. All that needs is two relays and somewhere to mount them anywhere on the path of the existing cable runs to the lights (somewhere the wires can be disconnected or even cut), half a doz lucars (maybe some mating connectors if cutting's too brutal for ya), and enough thick (14awg) brown wire to feed the relays off the fuse/reg. box. Oh yes, and a good crimp tool - the years I have wasted for using one of them flat doings and the red/blue/yellow plastic sleeve crimp ons rather than a good ratchet crimp tool and uninsulated connectors with separate sheaths. Like I say, that's only good for unloading the light switches, not to upgrade the existing lights, which I find ok for what I want. Graham

I've got something like that for the lights left on alarm, powered off the dash lights and earthed by the door switches. It's a bit loud to use for the flasher. I want something that goes "click, click". Maybe just a piezo, a resistor, and a cap, on the repeater in the dash. Probably need to buy a few though, cos I'll break the first ones. Graham

I just do blinking bad ones! But only on and off. Graham

On the topic of fuse boxes, when I swapped the dynamo on the Herald 13/60 for an alternator, mostly cos the regulators was failing to run a CD player when the engine was running, I converted the regulator box to one. When it was finished, the wiring to the fuse box was, as I remember, the same as to the regulator. Though that's only as I remember, and I doubt it was as original when I started. But with one of them alternators that look like a dynamo, it shouldn't be obvious it's been upgraded. I'm only using 3 fuses at the moment, so the 4ths there for some upgrade or other, like relays on the lights. If I do put relays in the lights, I'll put them out of the way under the dash. I'm aware of the issue of voltage drop in the run up from the battery and back down to the lights and the supposed axiom that they should go as close to the headlight as possible. But I would split the existing feed to the lights after the column switches, using the existing section from the switches to operate the main and dip relays and the existing section to the lights from the relay outputs. Then all I need is a feed from the fuse box to the relays and somewhere to mount them where they are accessible but don't show unless you look. This is what I've got in the Dolomite Sprint. I think it's a fairly neat solution if the idea is mostly to take the load of the lighting switches not to upgrade the front end to a set of daylighters.

No sign of a tow bar having been fitted, though I have one (actually two) to fit one day. I wish now that I'd remembered that. Seems the 4th pin is for a "tow bar indicator", when it's running 3 lights at a time, as you point out. But I'm still not clear what it does to whom and with what. When/if I fit the tow bar, I'll get one of them 3-pin electronic ones that have in, out, and earth, and don't change speed for more bulbs (the one in the Doly does speed up if one blows). I may also want to fit it under the dash on the driver's side where I can hear the damned thing over the engine. Fitting a LED in the dash when I put the tacho in helps not leaving the indicators on, as does rotating the steering shaft so the cam is in the middle of the switch when going straight, and finding that it seems to matter how far in/out the switch is mounted on the column shroud. I'll have to rotate the shaft again when I've had the tracking re-centred, cos it's way off, and the garage can't seem to understand what's needed - or are playing dumb cos they don't want to muck about with the bottom knuckle. But I just got this one cos I need the car and the BOSCH one went intermittent - seemed to be getting well hot and then not working. I asked the wife if the flashers were working and she said yes, no, yes, no, yes... Yes I know that's old, but so am I.

Does any of that apply to the 3-pin Intermotor replacement I put in? It's a bit longer than the Bosch one, so its connectors are close to fouling the fuse (nee regulator) box ones. So I've got it in at about 35 degrees off vertical. There were no instructions in the box, and I wouldn't have read them unless it didn't work anyway.

Does anyone have pics of a 13/60 with a 12/50 bonnet fitted or a 12/50 with 13/60 overriders, just to see what it looks like? Graham

I've just replaced what looks like it was probably the original flash relay on the Herald 13/60. It was exactly like this one, except it was beaten, battered, and something else alliterative: The one I replaced it with was a 3 pin one marked X, L and P, which Dr Google helped me sort out, and it works. But the BOSCH blinkgerber I took out was 4 pin - it was wired as 49=X=supply, 49a=L=load, and C=P=repeater. The 4th pin, marked C2, was unconnected. I see from the Herald diagram that only 3 pins are needed, but wondered if anyone knew what the 4th did in some other application when the unit worked properly?

Yes, that looks absolutely fine. Thanks. Graham

That's exactly right (for the passenger side and with the bottom hinge spring, washer, and nut), and it's just wonderful that you can help. Graham

Hi Colin, Thanks for this. What I really need is the inner quarterlight section for the passenger, left side, opposite to what's in the attached picture, with the top plate of the top hinge attached. I don't want the outer seal, but I would like the spring, washer, and nut for the bottom hinge as well, just in case the one on the car is rusted solid. I don't care about colour or chrome as long as the bottom nut comes off okay, the top hinge is free, and the catch works. If it's too much work to drill out the rivets on the top hinge, I don't mind buying and paying P&P on the whole thing, with or without the legs that go into the door. But in that case, I will feel better if them legs and or the outer seal are knackered though. So how much to W Lancs. (FY8)? Graham

Just wondering if you've managed to have a look if you have one that's only good in the parts I need? Not sure about what's procedure in this forum, reply or PM. Graham

Or maybe a quarterlight glass with the frame that swings out too. Or even the whole subassembly - I'll be drilling the two rivets out of the plate for the top hinge and taking the 1/2 nut off the spring that forms the bottom hinge, so the state of the fixed frame with the runner for the drop glass is of no never mind. As long as the bottom hinge nut is like to come off. There's one in eBay for £40 inc. P&P, but if there's someone with a bit they've replaced some part of which will go again in this case, I'd sooner use one of them. Graham

On the issue of taking out the two rivets at the top of the frame, what does anyone think about what rivets to put back. I can't find any closed countersunk ones or countersunk open brass/copper ones, but I can get either stainless steel or aluminium open countersunk. I'm thinking stainless and some filler. Graham

Sorry if we've diverged a bit. I need to get the hinge split and the bracket off the frame cos mine's bust. But that goes a long way to getting the triangular seal out. And, if I have the right of it, Colin appears to be thinking about getting that seal out in the same way. I'm also thinking about replacing the seal on the other side of my car, cos now I have a seal that's much better than the one that's in. Graham

What are you looking for photos of? I just put a 3.2mm drill through the centre of each of the two rivets. Took a bit of drilling sideways to get the drill down the middle, but they're only brass. Getting the glass and its subframe out, after the nut was off the bottom hinge pin, did take a bit of wriggling, but weren't too hard. If I do the job that way - I can only seem to find a complete unit to buy, and might swap that instead - I'll take more note and maybe some pics. But I'm not doing owt till I get all the parts. If I do replace the plate alone, I'm also going to have to split and re-rivet/bolt the external hinge, and I'm still am thinking about what use in that. I also though of a stainless nut and bolt, maybe a coach bolt if I can get one that small - looks about 1/8th inch. Or maybe a very long pop rivet not fully pulled to the point of the pin snapping, and the pin knocked out once it's nipped up enough to hold, but not too tight on the hinge. A copper or a stainless steel one might do, if I can get one that long. I did think about an ordinary roundhead rivet, but I'm not sure about such a cavalier attitude to buying extra tools for the job.

Well I got the opposite part out of the spare door by drilling the two brass rivets visible in the top left corner, and for undoing the 1/2 nut that holds the bottom hinge. So I know how to fix it if I get the part. But I can't find a left hand bracket anywhere short of buying a full quarterlight and frame. I'm wondering if I find someone who's got a delicate hand with a MIG and will make up a tin plate to go between hinge and glass, if the old on can be welded back up. Graham