Triumph 1300 inlet manifold

[jagnut66]

Hi, 

Pictured below is the inlet manifold I acquired a while ago for my 1300 (ex-Spitfire) engine.

Incorporated into it is a water pipe, which in images I have viewed appears to connect with an outlet on the thermostat housing one end and then somewhere on the heater valve the other end (1), there is also another outlet (1a), however I am not sure where this connects into the system.

As the Herald set up is much simpler and doesn't use / need these extra pipes, plus (at their existing length) they will probably get in the way, I am proposing to shorten them (2). 

This would allow me to either link them into the existing Herald 1200 set up via rubber hoses or leave them disconnected. 

Does this pipe really matter and can I happily stick with the original Herald 1200 set up?

Many thanks as always,

Mike.

[JumpingFrog]

I think the manifold you have there is for a 1300 FWD, hence the flange on 1, the Herald 13/60 uses the same manifold but without the flange. Flange 1 goes to the heater valve as you say, 1a goes down to the heater return pipe that runs along the side of the block to the pump housing. The basic idea is that the manifold heater takes hot water coming out of the head just before the thermostat (where the temp sender also is), this then feeds the heater at 1, but to provide a return path if the heater valve is closed, water will return via 1a into the aforementioned return pipe, there is a small restrictor in the pipe at 1a to prevent excessive amounts of water flowing through this loop and avoiding the radiator or heater core.

You're right that the Herald 1200 is slightly simpler as it doesn't have a manifold heater, and instead takes the hot water feed for the heater directly from the cylinder head.

I would be inclined to set your car up as per Herald 13/60, all these parts are easily available, Triumph added the manifold heater presumably for a reason, although maybe just for economy and quicker warmup times. The Spitfire (at least in Europe) never used the manifold you have, it would have had twin SUs, but the setup is similar, also with a manifold heater. You just need to buy a heater hose set for a Herald 13/60 and the return pipe if you're missing it. You also need the water pump housing with both holes tapped, one for temperature sender and the other for the manifold heater. You should cut just the oval flange 1 off the manifold, so you can attach a hose there. The diagram on Canley Classic's website helps:

https://canleyclassics.com/?catalogue=triumph-herald-13/60&diagram=triumph-herald-13/60-manifold-details

Note that the shape of hose 26 in this diagram is a bit confusing, it actually goes to the heater, not to the manifold as the shape shown might suggest.

Edited May 28, 2023 by JumpingFrog

[jagnut66]

I believe later versions of the original (proper) Mini used a similar set up, I understand what you are saying but I'm not sure I'm convinced it would be that much of an improvement for the extra expense of a 13/60 specific return pipe and, presumably, a different heater valve to the one I currently have fitted (late 1200 version).

I already have a thermostat housing with two outlets, one for the temp sender (fitted) and the other sealed up (at the factory) with a removeable short blanking bolt, plus I have a threaded outlet stub pipe of the right size / thread.

I will go with what you say regarding trimming the pipe, in that I will remove the flange (1) but leave the secondary outlet (1a) in place, I will trial fit it onto the engine when it's in situ to see how much I actually need to trim off each end. 

Of course this will leave things open for a change of tack, should someone convince me that this really is a massive improvement.....

Best wishes,

Mike.

[Josef]

You shouldn’t need a new heater valve. As far as I know the heater valves didn’t change through the Herald production run (possibly with the exception of very early ones, and of course there were both Smiths and Delaney types!)

[jagnut66]

Well the 1300 engines been swapped in and guess what, I can't get the blessed return pipe off the 1200 engine, well not without wrecking it in the process anyway.....☹️

The pipe union to the engine will turn one way then back the other, however it will not slide back down the pipe and out of the connector to the engine, it simply jams up as you try to undo it.

So I've tightened it back up, I hope, if it leaks it won't matter if it breaks coming off......

It appears I will be looking for a replacement return pipe after all.

I wonder if this is why no return pipe came with  the 1300 engine......

Best wishes,

Mike.

[jagnut66]

I've finally worked out why I couldn't marry up the heater hose connections for the 13/60 engine in my head. 

My 1300 engine has the stub connector at the back of the head , the same as on my 1200 engine, however in the image below, which I believe shows a conventional 13/60 heater hose set up, this outlet is plugged (P).

So what I need to find is a blanking plug...... 

I shall start searching but links to one are always welcome. 👍

As I've stated before this is an ex Spitfire engine, so I take the heater hoses for these still require an outlet here?

On 28/05/2023 at 13:06, JumpingFrog said:

I would be inclined to set your car up as per Herald 13/60

Looks like I will be following this route after all 'JumpingFrog'. 🙂 

I think I've found an image for your signature on here too, see second picture below.....😉

Best wishes,

Mike.

Edited May 30, 2023 by jagnut66

[jagnut66]

A random thought occurs, this wouldn't be the same (size / thread) as the sump drain plug would it??

Best wishes,

Mike.

[Nigel Clark]

2 minutes ago, jagnut66 said:

A random thought occurs, this wouldn't be the same (size / thread) as the sump drain plug would it??

Best wishes,

Mike.

Yes, at least it is on Triumph sixes, where I've used a sump drain plug to blank off this tapping in the cylinder head.

Nigel

[jagnut66]

48 minutes ago, Nigel Clark said:

Yes, at least it is on Triumph sixes, where I've used a sump drain plug to blank off this tapping in the cylinder head.

Nigel

Thanks Nigel, I've just popped out and tried it, using the 1200's sump drain plug and it fitted a treat.

However, I need this in the 1200 unit, so another random thought occurred.....

What about the blanking bolt in use in the thermostat housing, it would need replacing with a hose outlet anyway.....

And the problem is solved, with no extra expense to boot! 🙂 The blanking bolt is also a perfect fit, wound straight in and doesn't foul the rocker cover, nor does it overlap where the exhaust manifold will sit.

Excellent, I'll repaint the area around it later, when I can see no leaks while it's under pressure.

Now, for three for three, will the stub pipe outlet that I've just removed from the back of the head fit the threaded hole in the thermostat housing just vacated by the aforementioned blanking bolt......

If the blanking bolt thread matches the thread in the back of the head then surely it must.......

But no.

For some reason it refused point blank to wind into the housing. 

However, I already have a new one that I bought on eBay (link below), which winds straight in and completes this part of the puzzle.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185285520529

For the record, both were attached with copper washers.

The only thing I'm left puzzled about, is why the original one was so clearly not a match??? 

Oh, well.....

Best wishes,

Mike.

[JumpingFrog]

14 hours ago, jagnut66 said:

I've finally worked out why I couldn't marry up the heater hose connections for the 13/60 engine in my head. 

My 1300 engine has the stub connector at the back of the head , the same as on my 1200 engine, however in the image below, which I believe shows a conventional 13/60 heater hose set up, this outlet is plugged (P).

So what I need to find is a blanking plug...... 

I shall start searching but links to one are always welcome. 👍

As I've stated before this is an ex Spitfire engine, so I take the heater hoses for these still require an outlet here?

Looks like I will be following this route after all 'JumpingFrog'. 🙂 

I think I've found an image for your signature on here too, see second picture below.....😉

Best wishes,

Mike.

 

The ironic thing is, the photo you've posted is of my car too, at least I recognise the messy blue and red overdrive wiring, by the look of it about 10 years ago when I'd just fitted new heater hoses. But yes the heater setup in my car is original, with a Smiths heater. Spitfire Mk. IV also inherited the same setup (with the same return pipe), but Spitfire Mk. III was some mix of Herald 1200 with heater fed from the cylinder head, but also with a manifold heater.

The original genesis of the name is from the Prefab Sprout song, King of Rock 'n' Roll. I keep considering changing it to something more personal, but haven't.

I can't explain your issue with the hose adaptors, did you try running a tap through the threads? Could just be that your water pump housing had been tapped with a blunt tap and the corrosion on the old hose adaptor stops it fitting.

If your blanking plug does leak, might have to find a sump plug after all, taper plugs are less likely to leak, but fingers crossed.

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by JumpingFrog

[jagnut66]

7 hours ago, JumpingFrog said:

If your blanking plug does leak, might have to find a sump plug after all, taper plugs are less likely to leak, but fingers crossed.

I will probably get one 'just in case' anyway.

Best wishes,

Mike.