A case of crossed wires

[SixasStandard]

Hello All,

Just thought I'd share this little gem.........discovered when I removed the gearbox cover of my '68 Vitesse 2L Mk1 for the first time. Something tells me this isn't an OE fitment!  The whole speedo drive assembly is loose in the housing, and this wire appears to be the only thing holding it in.  Any thoughts????

Also, my O/D was a retrofit......so can anyone identify its origins from the data plate?

Thanks,

Ian 

[Clive]

The overdrive is a D type, you could search the serial number to see exactly what it was originally from, but in reality it doesn't matter. D type are OE fitment. The gearbox will have originated from a vitesse or GT6, again not a problem as totally interchangeable.

As to the speedo drive retaining method, leave it alone for now unless you have time and inclination. There should be a retaining bolt fitted, thread on the casing may well have stripped. The thread could be recut oversize, or a helicoil thread repair used. See the diagram below, borrowed from Canley Classics. (part 95 is the bolt)

[SixasStandard]

Thanks Clive, reassuring to know that the OD is the correct type. I assume that the bolt locks onto either a flat or dimple machined into one of those bushes shown in the diagram?  and that to resolve the issue would be a 'gearbox out' project?  If so that explains why a previous owner chose to adopt this 'Heath Robinson' solution.

Never a dull moment with old cars!!

Ian

[Graham C]

You generally don't need to remove this drive so may be worth seeing if the thread has been stripped, if so you could glue a bolt in without taking out the gearbox.

As Pete L advised me recently you can Jack the gearbox up quite someway to give you more room.

Graham

[Pete Lewis]

the  retaining bolt has a spigot which has to align with a drilled hole in the speedo housing so the hsg .needs to be aligned to get the bolt in fully if someone has 

gorilla handed the bolt with the hole out of line then a striped thread is likey

making a home made bolt is not the end of the world 

506071  

 

[SixasStandard]

4 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

the  retaining bolt has a spigot which has to align with a drilled hole in the speedo housing so the hsg .needs to be aligned to get the bolt in fully if someone has 

gorilla handed the bolt with the hole out of line then a striped thread is likey

making a home made bolt is not the end of the world 

506071  

 

Hello Pete,

Thanks for the information. Do you know if this bolt is currently available? and if not then what the thread size is?  I'd rather do a 'proper' repair, but this early in my ownership I'm a little hesitant about taking the gearbox out. Graham's suggestion of jacking the gearbox up sounds interesting.........this is probably a stupid question, but would I need to disconnect the gearbox mountings and the prop first? (I can just imagine the number of eyes rolling at  the moment!).

Thanks,

Ian 

[Pete Lewis]

https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-506071

i would have thought you can access this without lifting on the D type

if you need to raise the tail then yes undo the mount either from the chassis plate or  the mount from the back of the OD   both just!!!      two bolts 

the speedo hsg has a thin 0 ring to seal it to the case this may stick a bit , if its missing then a good smear of sealer , the  pinion spindle has a small oil seal 

fits under outer screwed in end of the speedo drive https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRID005673

pete

[dave.vitesse]

1 hour ago, clive said:

The overdrive is a D type, you could search the serial number to see exactly what it was originally from, but in reality it doesn't matter. D type are OE fitment. The gearbox will have originated from a vitesse or GT6, again not a problem as totally interchangeable.

As to the speedo drive retaining method, leave it alone for now unless you have time and inclination. There should be a retaining bolt fitted, thread on the casing may well have stripped. The thread could be recut oversize, or a helicoil thread repair used. See the diagram below, borrowed from Canley Classics. (part 95 is the bolt)

+1

Dave

[Clive]

20 minutes ago, SixasStandard said:

Hello Pete,

Thanks for the information. Do you know if this bolt is currently available? and if not then what the thread size is?  I'd rather do a 'proper' repair, but this early in my ownership I'm a little hesitant about taking the gearbox out. Graham's suggestion of jacking the gearbox up sounds interesting.........this is probably a stupid question, but would I need to disconnect the gearbox mountings and the prop first? (I can just imagine the number of eyes rolling at  the moment!).

Thanks,

Ian 

A proper repair is one that works!!

It is probably a UNC thread, but could be an oddball. Honestly, retapping oversize, and make a bolt, (cap head will help keep the head size down) by filing the end to match the original size. That would be as good a repair as you can get. 

As an aside. I have "attached" a triumph angle drive to my T9 gearbox using extreme "bodgery". Essentially a length of 1" wide steel strip 1/8" thick, and cut a fork at one end to act on the angle drive. The other end is attached to a random bolt on the side of the gearbox several inches away. It was that or spend over £100 on a "special" angle drive, which seem to have a short life. Mine has been in place a total of 6 years, and about 25-30K. Including being in my last spitfire that met an untimely end. So it is a bodge, but it works!

[Pete Lewis]

there are some serial number clues here  25 looks vitesse and many others common in there time   but the 1959  is not listed  ( my thoughts this is a 'year )

http://bristoloda.org/newboda/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Laycock-Complete.pdf

need to file this pdf 

Pete

[SixasStandard]

Thanks Dave, Clive, Pete,

All comments duly noted, and PDF safely filed away for future reference. 

Regards,

Ian

[SixasStandard]

Whilst we're on this subject......I have a (sort of) related query. My car has a fibreglass gearbox cover, which when I removed it revealed a rather dubious collection of that thin foam sheet (like the stuff your Ikea flat pack units come wrapped in) which had been used as a makeshift lining. What's the current wisdom regarding lining the cover properly? and before anyone asks I'll be looking for a solution more towards the 'economy' end of the cost spectrum!

Thanks,

Ian    

[Pete Lewis]

doug has the post for this one with silent coat 

[SixasStandard]

If anyone is interested, I'm currently experimenting with the practicality of covering the G-Box cover cubby tray with black Ambla. It was painted when I got the car, and looked a bit tatty, so I'll report back on how it goes. I've made a DIY 'press tool' of sorts out of MDF, and have put the better halve's backup hair dryer to good use. It seems to be working so far.......but I'll leave it as is for a few days to make sure the material is thoroughly stretched to shape.

Ian 

[SixasStandard]

As an addendum to this thread, I have contacted the second owner of my car who installed the O/D back in the late 1980s. Apparently the O/D was taken from a scrap 'G' plate Mk2 Vitesse.

Just to confirm about the speedo drive.......should you be able to 'wiggle it about' when it is locked in with the spigot bolt?  The bolt is in situ on my car, and appears to be tightened down correctly, but the speedo drive pinion gear shaft still seems loose, whereas the bush that it goes through is locked in place.

Ian 

[Pete Lewis]

it should just have the clearnce to rotate for years , not wiggle around  the bush in the hsg, could be worn

chicken and egg is this hsg or spindle  ???  or both               https://www.overdrive-repairs.co.uk/buy-spares.php?cat=D Type Spare Parts List

too much wiggle will not help the angle drive 

time to remove and examine 

Pete

[SixasStandard]

1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said:

it should just have the clearnce to rotate for years , not wiggle around  the bush in the hsg, could be worn

chicken and egg is this hsg or spindle  ???  or both               https://www.overdrive-repairs.co.uk/buy-spares.php?cat=D Type Spare Parts List

too much wiggle will not help the angle drive 

time to remove and examine 

Pete

Hello Pete,

Is this the sort of work that could be done with the gearbox in situ?.......or does it need to come out?

Ian

[Clive]

I think it can be done in situ, bit of a fiddle and may need to undo the gearbox mount and lift the rear of the gearbox a little. First job is to get the bolt out and check it is correct.... you have pics above to help. 

After that, Petes advice is sound, see if the parts they are worn, but an odd thing to happen. Report back when they are out!

[Pete Lewis]

once the bolt is out its only old oil PO applied sealer , it will just !!!!   slide out ,  Im sure theres enough room to do this quite easily,

if it refuses to move its just STUCK   there is no hidden fixing.   just need more shreaded wheats  strong tea and some tipple 

Pete

[SixasStandard]

Thanks guys,

I'll report back when I've got the gearbox lifted and the speedo drive assembly removed for inspection. As it's going to be disconnected, and is at least 32 years old (and possibly 52 years old) should I be considering replacing the speedo cable at this point?  Or alternatively is there any maintenance I should be conducting?

Ian

[Pete Lewis]

old cables are often better than the new 

the cables helical case and the spiral inner can transpose oil up into the head, giving high readings you dont need,

graphite dust is the stuff but from who/where.   some light grease is better than a dry inner , any needle flicker is due to the cable winding up and releasing giving the disc and needle a flick you dont need.( i suggested sand down a pencil lead but John feels sand would be included )

I have some no transitional grease we had to keep for tachograph cable use , DOT rerquirement , bit daft we used electronic units and i have some in ajar 

it smells awful so wont offer to post it , 

but any light smear of grease will work , not oil .

and the main spindle of the speedo needs a squirt to stop it seizing after all these years of round and round 

Pete

 

[SixasStandard]

1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said:

old cables are often better than the new 

the cables helical case and the spiral inner can transpose oil up into the head, giving high readings you dont need,

graphite dust is the stuff but from who/where.   some light grease is better than a dry inner , any needle flicker is due to the cable winding up and releasing giving the disc and needle a flick you dont need.( i suggested sand down a pencil lead but John feels sand would be included )

I have some no transitional grease we had to keep for tachograph cable use , DOT rerquirement , bit daft we used electronic units and i have some in ajar 

it smells awful so wont offer to post it , 

but any light smear of grease will work , not oil .

and the main spindle of the speedo needs a squirt to stop it seizing after all these years of round and round 

Pete

 

Thanks Pete,

Point taken about old often better than new.........I have some spray Lithium Grease, but not sure if that would be too heavy? Unfortunately I don't have any compressed air, as I imagine that would be useful in forcing grease along the cable internals.

Ian 

 

[Pete Lewis]

just smear the inner . after a clean 

using an air line up the outer would just grease the back of the dash  !!!!

Pete

[SixasStandard]

OK......so some more advice needed chaps. As you will see from the attached picture I have raided the 'Boys Own Book of Car Repair' to come up with a way of raising the rear of the gearbox in my Vitesse. I have removed the rear gearbox mount top bolts, but can not get the gearbox to rise by more than about half an inch........a tad disappointing to put it mildly!  What sort of lift should I be expecting? one inch or several? And can someone confirm whether I need to disconnect the prop or not? as that is the only thing I can think of that might be scuppering things at the moment.

It makes you wonder what genius came up with the idea of putting the speedo drive securing bolt in such an inaccessible location. With the bolt head so close to the housing, even with the gearbox tail lifted it still only leaves you with the option of an open ended spanner from below, or some cranked spanners (which I don't have), unless I go 'Medieval' and resort to some water pump pliers. Has anyone actually removed their speedo drive from an O/D gearbox with the gbox still in situ in the car? 

Any advice or guidance appreciated.

Ian  

[Pete Lewis]

is the prop in contact with the prop tunnel ???  if so thats your lot without  undoing the prop coupling

Its a classic,   all these hairy bum moments are devised while the car is dreaming and youre all cosy an having a nap   they do it on purpose.

thinking it must be the prop as we have removed the OD from the back of the  G'box .... in the car , so that had loads of room/height

the guy who designed the lack of socket clearance was an alien  bit of careful  case grinding when the bolts out may give a socket fit

Pete