A case of crossed wires

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, SixasStandard said:

And can someone confirm whether I need to disconnect the prop or not?

Ian,

To get the best OD g/box elevation the prop does need to be disconnected this will give you the room you require. I like the lifting gear kit !!

Also worth checking that the propshaft is the correct way around whilst at it.

Regards.

Richard.

[SixasStandard]

Thanks Pete & Richard,

Prop will be disconnected tomorrow........this reminds me of a cartoon I saw decades ago.......a bloke in overalls standing in his garage amidst the components of a completely disassembled car, with his Wife peering around the garage door looking incredulous........the caption........."The cigarette lighter wasn't working!".

Bloody cars!

Ian   

 

[Graham C]

I would suggest going forward a visit to Aldi or Lidl next time they have a car trolley Jack on offer, they are very good and are a very useful tool. Also build up a stock of blocks of wood, 2x4s various lengths, even 6 inch lengths of wide flat timber 1inch thick to spread the jacking point. Help with jacking up gearboxes, engines.

With the trolley Jack you can lift the gearbox up from below but would need blocks of wood on the Jack to take up the space of the chassis.

Well welcome to the pleasures of owning a classic car, what starts with a simple job/question on the forum leads to a larger job.

Have you thought of moving the Jack closes to the rope, you will increase the lifting of the gearbox?

Graham

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Graham C said:

I would suggest going forward a visit to Aldi or Lidl next time they have a car trolley Jack on offer, they are very good and are a very useful tool. Also build up a stock of blocks of wood, 2x4s various lengths, even 6 inch lengths of wide flat timber 1inch thick to spread the jacking point. Help with jacking up gearboxes, engines.

With the trolley Jack you can lift the gearbox up from below but would need blocks of wood on the Jack to take up the space of the chassis.

Well welcome to the pleasures of owning a classic car, what starts with a simple job/question on the forum leads to a larger job.

Have you thought of moving the Jack closes to the rope, you will increase the lifting of the gearbox?

Knowing Ian as I do, he will have all that kit as he is a seasoned classic car owner. The scissor jack was a quick fix to accelerate the task of lifting the g/box whilst taking advantage of no pax seat in situ. No matter what jack you employ you will still need to undo the prop at the g/box end.

[SixasStandard]

Thanks Graham,

As Richard has said I do have a trolley jack, but with my Vitesse having been lowered by a previous owner it is all but impossible to get the thing under the car for this particular application. I will put some more blocks under the scissor jack and shorten the tow rope loop to gain the extra height that I need, and as Richard has also rightly pointed out the prop definitely needs to be disconnected to achieve the required lift.  I was being a little flippant with my last entry, but it is funny how often a seemingly small project turns into something much bigger.  I tend to find it difficult to leave things alone when I find bodged repairs........even when those bodged repairs might well have been working perfectly effectively for decades.........once I know it's there it just keeps eating away at me........so I only have myself to blame!!

Ian

[Pete Lewis]

go for it Ian  

you can always put a bit of new wire back   whats to loose   Ha !!

Pete

[Graham C]

Ian, Hopefully no offence was caused but the use of a scissor jack and the set up was clever. I have just completed the same task this weekend of lifting the gearbox to fit a new drive cable so it was fresh in my mind as I lifted from below.

Must remember your way as it was easier than having to lift the car on a scissor jack to then get the trolley jack under it.

Also you way has the benefit of better support.

" I tend to find it difficult to leave things alone when I find bodged repairs", yes I agree these annoy me as well and I spend more time and cost attempting to do the right thing.

Good luck with the repair once sort you can forget about it.

Graham

 

 

[SixasStandard]

Hello All,

FINALLY!!........I now have the speedo drive out, and have to say it was definitely disconnecting the prop that made the difference. With the prop separated you can get a lot of height at the rear of the gearbox, but I still had to resort to the smaller of my AF spanners (1/2" and 7/16") to get hold of that little bugger of a bolt and avoid the exhaust system in the process. Anyway, all out now, so now the priority is to identify if I do actually have an issue with the angle drive or whether this whole exercise has been a massive waste of time. So, what I've found is that all of the wobbliness and what I consider to be excessive play is in the angle drive. The pinion gear and shaft look fine, and are a nice fit in the bearing assembly, which in turn is a nice fit in the overdrive housing. The lock bolt is fine, and is engaging in the bearing assembly ok, with no evidence of any stripped thread or other damage. I have not taken the threaded end piece out of the bearing assembly to check the oil seal, but as no leakage has been observed I'm assuming that the seal is ok. ALL of the wobbliness comes from the angle drive when screwed onto the threaded end piece.........so is this normal? I just can't see why there would be this amount of play when the two are screwed together.

I've attached some pictures to hopefully give some idea of what I'm talking about, so any advice or comments would be appreciated.

Regards,

Ian  

[SixasStandard]

1 hour ago, Graham C said:

Ian, Hopefully no offence was caused but the use of a scissor jack and the set up was clever. I have just completed the same task this weekend of lifting the gearbox to fit a new drive cable so it was fresh in my mind as I lifted from below.

Must remember your way as it was easier than having to lift the car on a scissor jack to then get the trolley jack under it.

Also you way has the benefit of better support.

" I tend to find it difficult to leave things alone when I find bodged repairs", yes I agree these annoy me as well and I spend more time and cost attempting to do the right thing.

Good luck with the repair once sort you can forget about it.

Graham

 

 

Absolutely no offence taken Graham, and to be honest it's always wise to assume that I know absolutely nothing as a default position!!  I am just grateful that more experienced guys are willing to share their hard won knowledge.......as it really saves a lot of grief for those still learning like myself.

Regards,

Ian

[Pete Lewis]

we had a post for bodges like finding brake cyls  with the pistons reverse to make the seal seem ..bigger . 

so why was the wire tied up the angle drive  ????        , has it been gorilla'd and its threads wrecked  

they are a knurled cap so finger tight , is all thats needed ,  so i guess some plonker has cross threaded and moled it  ????

pete

 

[daverclasper]

On 12/04/2020 at 15:27, Pete Lewis said:

graphite dust is the stuff

haven't got a link, but I got some really cheap off Ebay, a while back.

Dave

[SixasStandard]

The angle drive screws onto the threaded end piece attached to the pinion bearing ok, so no mullered threads.......but the angle drive then just flops around after being screwed on tight, and speaking as someone with an engineering background.......that just doesn't seem right to me. I may well just have to bite the bullet and buy a new angle drive.......but the all metal OE spec jobby from Rimmers is 100 quid!!!........although you can pick up lesser spec items for a third of that from the same supplier, not sure if that would be a wise decision though. Anyway, I just want to be absolutely sure that this amount of play in the angle drive is wrong before I raid the piggy bank (again)........so anyone with definite anecdotal evidence let me know.

Regards,

Ian  

[Adrian Cooper]

Hi Ian,

Do you have the copper washer between the angle drive and the threaded end piece? If so, perhaps fit a thicker one to take up the slack?

Adrian

[Guest]

Hello Ian,

I get the impression the PO placed wire on the angled drive because of the movement and not as he said, "to stop the cable vibrating against the bodywork" which was always a load of old farmyard from the start.

If there is wear then perhaps a thicker washer as Adrian suggest may go some way to assist.

It's always difficult to gauge, in some cases, how much movement there should be - I believe there is an amount of play built in to these units as I certainly have some movement on my Vitesse where the speedo cable connects. 

It may be prudent to go for the cheaper option angled drive and at least you can compare and / or fit accordingly.

Or phone Canley Classic and ascertain how much their replacement drive costs (certainly cheaper than Rimmer I would say) and worth asking about a decent second-hand unit as they are touting spares all of a sudden. 

Regards.

Richard.

 

[Adrian Cooper]

I've just had a look at two drives from my collection of broken ones and there seems to be some variation in the length of the threaded collars. I would say, if the thing is working, just pack it out with washers until there is just some play left. 

Adrian

[Pete Lewis]

loads of places sell OE or a supposed  quality repro ( just googled it ) but here is a place that makes a wide variety  ....... look well engineered but back to £100 

http://www.speedograph-richfield.com/html/minature_gearbox.html

might be worth a call to the guys who make all smiths instruments https://www.smiths-instruments.co.uk/classic

would have been easy when they used to visit to check  warranty , the guy had a bond bug and lots of stuff was available for a good cuppa 

but that all finished in the late 90s as Dodge began to disappear   happy days and i didnt have a classic then 

Pete

[Graham C]

Ian, have you tried Ang classic car parts, angle drives £51. They are local to me and I have used them for odds and ends. Very friendly and helpful. Interestingly I checked their drives out recently as I need ed one which was shorter, alas it was not. However I thought the quality was good.

Run by two classic nuts who have run Spitfires, etc and they have a good selection of stock. First time I went there to collect something got taken around their stores to see what they carry.

Graham

Ps interestingly Speedograph are also near me as well, also good for parts and very helpful. As a student was sack by them after 2 weeks of work experience over 40 years ago. Was going to use them to make a longer drive cable for me, but purchase one from someone on the forum.

[SixasStandard]

Thanks everyone,

I think I'll try Adrian's idea and use some packing washers to take up most of the slack, and the remainder I'll fill with a split rubber washer between the angle drive threaded cap and the drive main body. The speedo drive all looked ok when I took it apart, so no need to replace anything there, and the angle drive is doing the job, even with the loose fit, so I'll just focus on eliminating the slack in the existing unit for the time being.

A useful exercise though, and for those with limited undercar clearance due to lowered suspension, I would definitely recommend the approach that I took with a scissor jack and axle stand on the inside of the car. It had the added bonus of making the lining up of the rear gearbox mount holes much easier, with small adjustments in height easily accomplished by a part turn of the jack screw. One word of caution though, you need to have confidence in your floor pan's structure, and spread the load with pieces of wood. The other difficulty I found was to position the speedo drive's pinion bearing accurately so that the spigot bolt would engage in the positioning hole. I eventually made a simple wrench from thin steel that engaged with the flats on the threaded end piece (I couldn't get a spanner on the flats), and this enabled me to gently rotate the entire pinion bearing until the spigot bolt engaged. 

Another word of caution, which will be obvious to most, but is still worth mentioning..........my good friend Richard (Classiclife) warned me to be prepared for some oil seepage when I took the speedo drive out, and in the event quite a bit escaped........in fact far more than I had anticipated. Luckily I had positioned a deep drip tray under the car, so didn't get caught out!! 

Regards,

Ian

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, SixasStandard said:

my good friend Richard (Classiclife) warned me to be prepared for some oil seepage when I took the speedo drive out, and in the event quite a bit escaped........in fact far more than I had anticipated.

Hello Ian,

I'm too good to you 😊 !!

On a serious note, you may want to think about investing in a low entry- high rise hydraulic trolley jack and it is something I keep thinking about. My trolley jack is pretty low but the addition of a LE-HR will be a good investment.

Regards.

Richard.

[Colin Lindsay]

4 hours ago, classiclife said:

Or phone Canley Classic and ascertain how much their replacement drive costs (certainly cheaper than Rimmer I would say) and worth asking about a decent second-hand unit as they are touting spares all of a sudden. 

Regards.

Richard.

 

£30 from Paddocks, but there's a S/H one on eBay for £20:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MGB-Triumph-Speedometer-Angle-drive-1962-1980-part-no-12069/324130897040?hash=item4b77b4fc90:g:zR0AAOSwNKlej1-P

[Clive]

20 hours ago, SixasStandard said:

Thanks everyone,

I think I'll try Adrian's idea and use some packing washers to take up most of the slack, and the remainder I'll fill with a split rubber washer between the angle drive threaded cap and the drive main body. The speedo drive all looked ok when I took it apart, so no need to replace anything there, and the angle drive is doing the job, even with the loose fit, so I'll just focus on eliminating the slack in the existing unit for the time being.

A useful exercise though, and for those with limited undercar clearance due to lowered suspension, I would definitely recommend the approach that I took with a scissor jack and axle stand on the inside of the car. It had the added bonus of making the lining up of the rear gearbox mount holes much easier, with small adjustments in height easily accomplished by a part turn of the jack screw. One word of caution though, you need to have confidence in your floor pan's structure, and spread the load with pieces of wood. The other difficulty I found was to position the speedo drive's pinion bearing accurately so that the spigot bolt would engage in the positioning hole. I eventually made a simple wrench from thin steel that engaged with the flats on the threaded end piece (I couldn't get a spanner on the flats), and this enabled me to gently rotate the entire pinion bearing until the spigot bolt engaged. 

Another word of caution, which will be obvious to most, but is still worth mentioning..........my good friend Richard (Classiclife) warned me to be prepared for some oil seepage when I took the speedo drive out, and in the event quite a bit escaped........in fact far more than I had anticipated. Luckily I had positioned a deep drip tray under the car, so didn't get caught out!! 

Regards,

Ian

Ian, I think yo are right to use a washer (or 2) in there.

It won't need to be any tighter than hand tight, so no mole grips or water pump pliers!

Re new angle drives, there were dreadful issues with the repro ones a few years ago, but not heard anything recently. The original ones tend to be very good. But they all break if the speedo cable seizes.

(if you can stretch to it, Weber WKD20 is excellent, even better with teh quick-lift foot pedal. Not cheap, but MoD use them so are very good quality and lovely to use)

[daverclasper]

About 3 years ago my AD broke. The SH original ones were selling for about £20 to £30 pounds on ebay then. I drove around for a few months without one, then bagged one for £10, though maybe that was lucky?.

[SixasStandard]

Clive,

I certainly agree that the Weber is a nice bit of kit, but as you point out a bit on the pricey side. There was a used one on Crack Bay and even that was going for 250 quid!!

Ian

[Clive]

13 minutes ago, SixasStandard said:

Clive,

I certainly agree that the Weber is a nice bit of kit, but as you point out a bit on the pricey side. There was a used one on Crack Bay and even that was going for 250 quid!!

Ian

One in guildford for £140...

(I had one I bought used, then had it 15 years but it was getting very leaky. Not realising how expensive they were, took it to the tip. I REALLY should have got it refurbished by the factory)

[SixasStandard]

On 11/04/2020 at 13:20, SixasStandard said:

If anyone is interested, I'm currently experimenting with the practicality of covering the G-Box cover cubby tray with black Ambla. It was painted when I got the car, and looked a bit tatty, so I'll report back on how it goes. I've made a DIY 'press tool' of sorts out of MDF, and have put the better halve's backup hair dryer to good use. It seems to be working so far.......but I'll leave it as is for a few days to make sure the material is thoroughly stretched to shape.

Ian 

Hello Chaps,

As a follow up on the project to retrim the cubby tray with Ambla.........unfortunately it didn't work out, and so I wouldn't recommend the idea to other members. It looked great to start off with, but unfortunately the material 'memory' was such that the contact adhesive eventually started to let go and caused lifting and buckling of the material. I really thought that I'd cracked it when I first removed the weighted 'press tool', but the amount of deformation required, even with significant heat having been applied, was just too much. Pity, as the initial result was a marked improvement over a purely painted finish.

Nothing ventured nothing gained.......but disappointing all the same.

Regards,

Ian