nicrguy1966 Posted October 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 9 minutes ago, Iain T said: Best practice is take copious amounts of photos and mark where everything is now. Iain I'm trying to, but you can guarantee that I haven't taken a photo of something that I've forgotten where it went! It doesn't help that my phone refuses to unlock when I have greasy fingers! I need to set up facial recognition! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 10 minutes ago, nicrguy1966 said: doesn't help that my phone refuses to unlock when I have greasy fingers! I I dropped mine and cracked the bloomin screen😡 and had to get it replaced! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 1 hour ago, nicrguy1966 said: I only started down this route based on advice that incorrect cam timing could be the cause of my odd ignition timing. Do you have other explanations for my need to have very advanced ignition timing? I am very open to new ideas. I think I suggested a shifted outer ring (inertia ring) on your crank damper pulley, which was my first thought, but you found that it was a true indicator of TDC. Other than that, it is possible to install the distributor drive 180 degrees out - the drive slot is only slightly offset - but that would need VERY advanced timing! Now you have corrected this small cam timing fault, please try the engine and prove me wrong! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 24 minutes ago, nicrguy1966 said: set up facial recognition! you think we want a face shot Nah !!!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicrguy1966 Posted October 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 46 minutes ago, JohnD said: I think I suggested a shifted outer ring (inertia ring) on your crank damper pulley, which was my first thought, but you found that it was a true indicator of TDC. Other than that, it is possible to install the distributor drive 180 degrees out - the drive slot is only slightly offset - but that would need VERY advanced timing! Now you have corrected this small cam timing fault, please try the engine and prove me wrong! John I haven't quite fixed the timing fault yet, but thanks to the help of several TSSC members, I'm well on my way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 As I say this next step may need a few attempts so dont go giving anything its final tighten just yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicrguy1966 Posted October 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 4 hours ago, JohnD said: I think I suggested a shifted outer ring (inertia ring) on your crank damper pulley, which was my first thought, but you found that it was a true indicator of TDC. Other than that, it is possible to install the distributor drive 180 degrees out - the drive slot is only slightly offset - but that would need VERY advanced timing! Now you have corrected this small cam timing fault, please try the engine and prove me wrong! John With the crank pulley off, I had a very good look at it, and there's no sign of any movement between the pulley and the rim with the timing marks. I'm even more confident now than at the start of the job that the TDC mark is in the right place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicrguy1966 Posted October 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, johny said: As I say this next step may need a few attempts so dont go giving anything its final tighten just yet... I think it only took me 10 or 11 attempts to set the balance point, set TDC, put the cam gear and chain on, check balance point, check TDC, tighten bolts on cam gear, check balance point, check TDC, remove cam gear and chain, set balance point, set TDC, put cam gear and chain on, check balance point and TDC, etc, etc, etc! Anyway, I'm happy now. In the end I had to flip the cam gear over, but I have no idea if it's 1/4 or 3/4 of a tooth different from when I started. The important thing is that the cam is at the balance point when the crank is at TDC and all the bolts are tightened. Two problem during the reassembly process. First, one of the bolts that holds the timing chain cover on just goes round and round. I don't think I stripped the thread as I never even got as far as tightening it with a wrench, I was just screwing it in by hand and discovered the problem. Even more anoying, it near the bottom so might explain the oil leak my car has always had from the front of the engine. Second, I can't get 2 of the bolts in that hold the fan on. They get stuck after about 1 turn. I tried screwing them in without the fan and all the rubber and steel sleeves to see if they were causing the problem but they weren't. Two screws are just refusing to play ball. I was very tempted to try starting the engine without a fan or radiator just to see what happens, but I thought I'd sleep on that idea and maybe give it a go tomorrow. I also still need to reset the rocker gaps on valves 1 and 2, but overall, excellent progress today (assuming the engine starts!). Edited October 16, 2023 by nicrguy1966 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 wow yes it has progressed well! The stripped bolt is unfortunately really common as theres a bridge piece over number 1 main bearing and its made of aluminium☹️ Theres two sump bolts and one timing cover bolt that go into it and any/all strip over time - its so predictable that you can now get the same piece made in steel. An alternative is to drill and re-tap the existing holes to a bigger size because otherwise, as you have found, it will always leak. You rotated the engine by hand did you, right round, and rechecked the timing? With the fan bolts are you sure theyre the right ones and not got mixed up with a different thread type? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicrguy1966 Posted October 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 7 minutes ago, johny said: wow yes it has progressed well! The stripped bolt is unfortunately really common as theres a bridge piece over number 1 main bearing and its made of aluminium☹️ Theres two sump bolts and one timing cover bolt that go into it and any/all strip over time - its so predictable that you can now get the same piece made in steel. An alternative is to drill and re-tap the existing holes to a bigger size because otherwise, as you have found, it will always leak. You rotated the engine by hand did you, right round, and rechecked the timing? With the fan bolts are you sure theyre the right ones and not got mixed up with a different thread type? I doubt I turned the engine right round, not deliberately anyway, but it was moving backwards and forwards quite a bit when I was tightening the cam gear bolts and I turned the engine the right direction back to TDC and checked the balance point after tightening. The fan bolts are definitely the right ones. I kept them with the fan. Two fit, two get stuck after 1 turn. Frustrating, but with fresh fingers I'll have another go very soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 yes take your time youll get there👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) 57 minutes ago, nicrguy1966 said: With the crank pulley off, I had a very good look at it, and there's no sign of any movement between the pulley and the rim with the timing marks. I'm even more confident now than at the start of the job that the TDC mark is in the right place. OH!!!! Inspection is useless! Just as is resistance, if you are a prisoner of the Vogons. You cannot tell by looking if the inertia ring has moved! I have several examples to demonstrate this, on one of which the ring has moved by 60 degrees! When you can, refit the damper pulley. Move the crank to TCD , as determined by a piston stop. THEN look at the crank pulley. If it coincides with the pointer on your timing cover, I will eat my hat (the chocolate sponge one), and resign from the Dishonourable Order of Gurus! Nothing else can remove the suspicion that you are trying to time the ignition from a fictional TDC point and I thought you had said that you had done this, and that the TDC marking and actual TDC coincided. John Edited October 16, 2023 by JohnD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicrguy1966 Posted October 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 2 minutes ago, JohnD said: OH!!!! Inspection is useless! Just as is resistance, if you are a prisoner of the Vogons. You cannot tell by looking if the inertia ring has moved! I have several examples to demonstrate this! When you can, refit the damper pulley. Move the crank to TCD , as determined by a piston stop. THEN look at the crank pulley. If it coincides with the pointer on your timing cover, I will eat my hat (the chocolate sponge one), and resign from the Dishonourable Order of Gurus! Nothing else can remove the suspicion that you are trying to time the ignition from a fictional TDC point and I thought you had said that you had done this, and that the TDC marking and actual TDC coincided. John I had already checked the TDC mark against piston 1 being at it's highest point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 Nurse! The Chocolate Sponge Hat, a bib and a spoon, please! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 If this doesnt sort out the problem theres a few more of us going to be joining you John! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicrguy1966 Posted October 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 15 minutes ago, johny said: If this doesnt sort out the problem theres a few more of us going to be joining you John! If this doesn't fix the problem, I'm still very grateful for all the help people have offered. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 I think JohnD may be saved from eating the chocolate sponge hat (much better with a dollop of full fat cream) as he may well be correct saying the dizzy could be 180 degrees out. The cam being 1/4 or 1/2 tooth out can't explain the advance issue. Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 But with the strobe we've proved the spark for cylinder 1 is coming at the right time relative to its TDC but has to be advanced quite a lot to run well... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 at the end of the day the cam timing does need to be about right what ever else is wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicrguy1966 Posted October 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 17 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said: at the end of the day the cam timing does need to be about right what ever else is wrong Yes, it isn't wasted effort (unless I've done it all wrong and made things worse!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 1 hour ago, johny said: But with the strobe we've proved the spark for cylinder 1 is coming at the right time relative to its TDC but has to be advanced quite a lot to run well Advance springs? I see it's been mentioned before but the advance curve may be miles out. The problem is over time some of our parts either wear out or replaced by wrong widgets.....and then there's the bits on our cars not just us! Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicrguy1966 Posted October 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 14 minutes ago, Iain T said: Advance springs? I see it's been mentioned before but the advance curve may be miles out. The problem is over time some of our parts either wear out or replaced by wrong widgets.....and then there's the bits on our cars not just us! Iain As a last resort, I could buy a new distributor, but best rule out other (cheaper) options first. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 If the springs are weak or broken youre going to get too much advance but true the mechanism could be stuck so needing more initial advance to compensate. However this was suggested at the beginning of the thread and discounted😒 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain T Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 As you say Johny, one step at a time. It's certainly a puzzle. Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicrguy1966 Posted October 16, 2023 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 22 minutes ago, johny said: If the springs are weak or broken youre going to get too much advance but true the mechanism could be stuck so needing more initial advance to compensate. However this was suggested at the beginning of the thread and discounted😒 They aren't stuck, the vacuum advance and centrifugal advance both do something, this was tested. Whether they're doing the right amount of advance at the right time is not possible for me to test at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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