GT6 MK1 door alignment

[ChrisJ]

Morning.

I've recently acquired a '68 Mk1 GT6 in pretty decent rust free shape.  Looking at the paperwork it's had plenty of bits and bobs over the years as a couple of people have worked on the restoration.

Notably, I have a receipt dated 2005 for amongst other things 2 rear wings and a drivers door skin.   No mention of a passenger door skin although this could have been done at a later date

The issue I'm having is with the alignment of the passenger door.  I have a gap at the top but tight at the bottom.  I can't adjust it anywhere.  Even with all bolts removed from the hinges, rubbers pulled out of the way and the door just sat in the opening, It can't be turned at all to make it line up.  You can see in the picture that the door has been catching in the past.  I suspect that the rear wing has been positioned incorrectly as where it meets the sill it curves inwards. There's no mention of a new sill being fitted which puzzles me as to how you could position the wing incorrectly.   From looking at it, if the bottom of that wing pulled out, that should open the gap up to about the same as what is currently at the top and then i would be able to adjust the whole lot.

I'm not a bodyshop guy so i'm after a bit of a pointer as to what might be the root cause and how best to tackle it

 

Thanks very much

 

Chris

 

[Colin Lindsay]

There was a spate of poorly-made panels a few years back, where the lower edge of the rear wing - repair did not meet the floor pan. This meant that the wing had to be bent inwards at the bottom causing the rear edge of the door to sit proud. I remember some owners sitting a piece of metal into the gap after adjusting the wing to suit the door. 

[ChrisJ]

Thanks for the reply.

Next step, get the DA on it and expose the welds to see what's going on?

[chrishawley]

I can imagine quite a lot of deconstruction being required to put that right and there could be a number of factors affecting the situation. The foot of the wing where it joins the presents many challenges: Colin has mentioned wings to which I'd add that repro sills are often imprecise in their dimensions (too 'skinny'). Another aspect is that when a wing is removed the B-post face (where the striker plate fits) is not very rigid and does not provide a definite datum for where the wing should sit and also the bottom of this panel may have to have had welded repairs. Then there's the inner sill and floor pan and whether any repairs there have been 'brought up short' causing pull-in.

So indeed wide area investigation (e.g. DA) is very much in order. For myself I'd want to determine first whether the sill has been repalced. The witness to this is usually that the front upper edge of the sill where it abuts the side scuttle shows a row of lap welds or tack welds (as opposed to the original spot welds of which there were seven I think). Then, much as you've done with the timber I'd check the truth of sill along the lower edge and with the bright finisher removed: It should be dead straight both in plan and elevation from front the back. If banana'd in either plane then that's going to an issue in making repairs.

Here's hoping that a reveal with a DA and does not show too many horrors.

 

[ChrisJ]

Well, this escalated quite quickly.

Sanded the lower rear wing, along the sill and the lower B post. and It was a full wing that's been put on.  Unfortunately I've uncovered some rather questionable craftsmanship.

Once I'd got all of the catty off the top of the welds and seams (everything was coated in it), it revealed that at some point it has had a sill and an A post transition which although seem to be correct panels, have been poorly fitted with gaps filled with sloppy welding and more catty.  The underside edge where it meets the inner sill although looked intact, after filler removal revealed it to look like a lace curtain.  No point in even attempting to unpick the welds as there would be nothing left.  Grinder it is then!  Only wanted to adjust my door gap.

Have a look at the pictures, Bit of questionable graft on show.  I particularly like the horizontal cut behind the front of the sill, left passenger footwell.  Not sure what the ambition was there.

Going to need some panels.  Are RimmerBrothers alright?  I see they sell "Genuine" and aftermarket sills.  £20 difference.  From every video I've watched it doesn't seem to matter where you buy your panel from, there's always a fanny on with fitting.

Quote

17 hours ago, chrishawley said:

Here's hoping that a reveal with a DA and does not show too many horrors.

 

lol

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by ChrisJ

[Josef]

Oh dear. Been there, done that. Mine was worse though! Rimmer’s are fine, but they’re almost always the most expensive option. I’d buy the ‘genuine’ sills (British Motor Heritage) from Canley Classics, James Paddock or similar. I’ve had one of these next to a Rover branded one from the 90s and they’re the same beyond some visible wear in the tooling. Still expect to have to cut it up a bit to get everything looking right though. You may want/need to adjust the fit of the rear wing where it meets the sill too as the root cause of your door stick out may well be that area being too far inboard. Aaaaand, if you find you need to make any repairs to the b post section in the door shut, don’t buy that panel, it’s junk, the pressing for the striker is too shallow so you’ll not be able to shut the door, also been there and also done that… (Doesn’t look like you’d need to go that far, but I wanted to get that warning in just in case!)

[ChrisJ]

Quote

17 minutes ago, Josef said:

You may want/need to adjust the fit of the rear wing where it meets the sill too as the root cause of your door stick out may well be that area being too far inboard

 

This was plan A.  Unpick it to see if there was 5-8mm or so of outward movement on the sill and lower wing.  

Been denied the easy fix now so it's all off.  That lower wing section is going the journey too.  Put a repair panel in and hopefully with it all been new, should get somewhere with the alignment.

 

B post where the door striker goes looks and feels ok.  The lower B post transition is a bit like a farmers field so that could very well be getting replaced too.

[Josef]

Yeah if you’ve got it that far apart you’ll be able to make it fit. At this point if it looks right, it is right! You can only buy the whole b-post striker / transition panel, so I’d just make up bits to do a neater job than you’ve inherited. What you have is similar to how my driver’s side had been treated and that was an easy enough repair when I had a few months fabrication experience and pretty much no proper tools. (Even if you did buy and cut up the panel, you’d almost certainly find yourself modifying the area in question anyway.)

Look forward to seeing how it progresses.

[ChrisJ]

Quote

38 minutes ago, Josef said:

You can only buy the whole b-post striker / transition panel

 

are we not talking about this lower transition piece?

[Josef]

1 hour ago, ChrisJ said:

are we not talking about this lower transition piece?

Oh, yes. Didn’t know that came separately. Never mind then!

[ChrisJ]

Saga continues.  More excavation revealed this beauty.  Some quality bodgery gone on here.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 7 by ChrisJ

[ChrisJ]

Ordered new floor, inner sill, strengthener, outer sill and a couple of other repair panels.

Floor was an absolute mission to get out.  All the corners bodged up and full of filler over rubbish welding.  Looked like a reasonable repair until you get all the paint and the filler off.  welds were all over, bits of metal here and there and pop rivets galore..  Spent a good few hours picking through it to get it off whilst trying to save anything decent.  Filler also inside the outer sill over all the shan patching that's been done in the past.  Corner of the battery box where the top of the outer sill meets looks a bit messy too.  Filler had even been built up on flat repair panel to make it look like it had the shape in it and then painted over.  

Opted to replace the full floor in one which was a bit of a challenge but managed to get it wriggled into position and under all of the flanges.  Not welded in yet though.

Hung the new outer sill on with the door and still theres something not right with that original door shut line.  Im absolutely convinced that the rear wing has been fitted pushed in too far.  Perhaps the B post isn't set right?  Dunno.  There's something.

A bit disheartened if I'm honest and a bit in over my head perhaps.  Bodywork isn't my forte.  May have to relent and get a professionals eye on it.  

Even though I've done the right thing by replacing all the knackered stuff that was bodged and hidden, no point in welding all the new stuff back up to end up with the same problem I initially had.

Edited January 7 by ChrisJ

[Unkel Kunkel]

Keep going!

You are making real progress and you are learning  all the time.

From personal experience, discovering  the extent of rust in these cars can be quite daunting and there will be heart- sink moments which will make you doubt whether you should have even embarked on such a project - but just keep plodding on - you will get there.

I was completely zero-experienced in body repair and an entirely self taught MIG welder when I started my restoration of Spitfire - I made  all sorts of really major cock-ups, - I had to re-do bits;  I had to and walk away from it now and again, but gradually, slowly,  things will start to come together, and with experience gained  there will come something else which is a very satisfying sense of achievement. 

 This extraordinary forum  will help you, as it helped and tutored me - and continues to assist me.

‘K.B.O’ as Churchill said!
 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 8 by Unkel Kunkel

[Josef]

Oh dear, giving me flashbacks here this is all looking very familiar. You’ll get there though! I managed to do so from an even less experienced position than you’re in. 

[ChrisJ]

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

 

Little update.

All the old shan cut out.  The rabbit hole went rather deep.  There's a bit of fabrication to do at the lower A post extending to the front following on from the sill strengthener and the same carry on at the lower rear wing/arch.

So far we've got new floor, inner and outer sills, A post transition and the lower rear wing repair panel clamped or self drilling screws into place.  Managed to straighten out where the lower wing was going inwards where it met the sill (See pictures in my first post).  This seems to be a common problem I've seen browsing the for sale sites looking at other peoples cars.  Alot of fettling still deciphering what may have been done wrong in the past.  Still couldn't make the door fit the hole properly but had a consistent gap along the bottom of the sill and up the bonnet.  So after a bit of grinding at both sides of the door and chipping off a bit of weld that I hadn't noticed, finally got the door to go inside the opening pretty well.  Since I've come this far now, I intend to have it bang on when I'm done.  To that end there's a 2mm lip on the bottom of the door to the sill which i will get to fit in perfectly flush.  Either by altering the doorskin (last option) or the first thing to try is bending a slightly shorter flange on the outer sill where it meets the inner and this should push it out to meet the bottom of the door.

Slow progress but nevertheless I appear to be getting somewhere.  Pictures attached showing gaps I've got so far. 

Edited January 21 by ChrisJ

[jmh]

Make sure the lower edge of the sill will go like:

[ChrisJ]

Quote

Make sure the lower edge of the sill will go like:

 

Funny you mention that.

I spoke to a Triumph restoration guy looking for a few pointers.  One of which was that he said the early cars need another 10mm adding to the new replacement floor panels as they aren't long enough.  Are you confirming this?  The image you've posted shows the sill leaning.  As in the bit that the door closes into isnt flat and leans away from the car.  Is that right?  Makes sense for water run off.  I'd look at the other side of the car but since this side was bodged up a bit, i've discounted anything on the car as a correct reference point.

 

Thanks

 

Chris

Edited January 22 by ChrisJ

[jmh]

21 hours ago, ChrisJ said:

One of which was that he said the early cars need another 10mm adding to the new replacement floor panels as they aren't long enough.  Are you confirming this?

Yep! Goes for all years though!

21 hours ago, ChrisJ said:

the sill leaning

Was just a quick drawing! 

[Josef]

Those gaps are looking pretty good! Yep you’ll need to add to the lip on the edge of the floor, the sills also need to be fitted slightly under tension though (you push up slightly on the lower edges) so take that in to account too when adding your floor lip.

[ChrisJ]

May have sussed what the original problem with the door fit was.

If you look at the first picture in my original post you can see that the top of the door is a mile away from the rear wing but the bottom was touching.

I need to repair the lower A post but since bodywork and fabricating is a bit baptism of fire for me here, I just bought the repair panel.  Seems like a good quality one, a cream coloured panel from RimmerBrothers.  Anyway, wouldn't it hell as like fit.  Wanted to go up by 30mm but the top of it was being stopped by the shaped inner A post strengthener (Behind where the door hinges bolt in).  I experimented with a jack and found that by jacking it up, not only did the panel fit perfect, but the door moved up by the same amount.  Left the jack in, adjusted the door hinges and what do ya know, the door fits almost perfect now.  The profile/contour is correct and follows that of the wing, the bonnet and the sill.  

What I  deduce from this is that during the past restoration that it's had, it's been welded up in the wrong place.  I've got pictures of it painted on a trailer with sills on but no doors and no windscreen or frame in.  Knowing what i know now, seems like you would have a job on doing this work with only half a car.

[Richard Baines]

Great work @ChrisJ. I'm trying to sort a similar problem with my Spitfire and have come to the same conclusion as you. The door fit wasn't right. An outer sill and a-post repair, plus a later floor and inner sill replacement (off the chassis), had set the bulkhead in the wrong place. I reckon it needs to come up about 1cm or so for the door gap at the rear wing to be correct.

Did you have any issues with the floor attachment at the front when you jacked the A post repair panel up? (i.e the front floor/bulkhead seam lifting up away from where it needs to be)

I'm at the point now where to fix mine, I think I will need to separate the seam at the front of the floor where it meets the front bulkhead panel. Everything else is loose but I can't seem to jack it up independently as long as the floor is attached.

 

[ChrisJ]

On 05/02/2024 at 09:15, Richard Baines said:

Did you have any issues with the floor attachment at the front when you jacked the A post repair panel up? (i.e the front floor/bulkhead seam lifting up away from where it needs to be)

No.  Im jacking the A post by itself.  The floor doesn't move as I'm moving everything above it and it's also not welded to it yet.  You'll see on the inside of the A post behind where the door hinges attach that the support is shaped to sit over the lower a post panel. It was sitting perfectly on top but my A post repair wanted to go up and it was this that was stopping it.  That's when I decided to jack the lot and discovered that it made the door go up (obviously) but then I was able to adjust the hinges and get it to line up properly as I had a bit more movement once jacked.  Forgive my wonderful drawing but it shows the direction of travel where I'm jacking it. I've still got some A post left below the floor but I'll just trim that up.  The common theme I kept coming across was people saying fit everything around the door and I've got the door somewhere near now.  Can't be wrong on 3 sides can it!  The shut line across the bottom of the door to the sill is even from front to back and my door to bonnet gap is reasonably straight.  All achieved with a little bit of jacking.  Give it a go in little increments.  I also removed the door striker whilst I did it so the door wasn't fixed at the B post by being pulled down or anything.  If it shuts perfect but then get's caught on the striker, then adjust the striker.  With a grinder if necessary.  lol.  Most important thing is that the door shuts and looks right when it's shut.  I can just give mine a push from fully open and it closes itself now.

I also bought new door hinges as there was play in my pins.  Tried new pins but they were a right faff to fit so I sacked it off and just bought hinges.

 

 

[ChrisJ]

On 05/02/2024 at 09:15, Richard Baines said:

I'm at the point now where to fix mine, I think I will need to separate the seam at the front of the floor where it meets the front bulkhead panel. Everything else is loose but I can't seem to jack it up independently as long as the floor is attached.

It's a bit of a chew separating this at the front as I found out when I removed the floor.  Don't forget that the floor bolts through to the chassis in the corner and behind the front of the A post is the L shaped bracket that slides in between the chassis and the floor.  The A post get's welded to that so you'll have to have it all separated if you're just after jacking that A post.

[Richard Baines]

Thanks again Chris, makes a lot of sense. Your approach is pretty much what I have been planning on doing, I think the issue I have had is just forcing the stretch specifically without lifting the whole car off the jackstands instead. I have so little weight in the car, it's just an empty shell and chassis. So I will have another go before separating that seam, but with a lot more ballast added. The way I've cut the A post and unbolted the front of the floor, it definitely is just the front floor/bulkhead seam holding things together.

On the passenger side I'm working on, the only thing I know to be correct for door fit is the door itself. It's a NOS Unipart one. Like you my plan is to get the rear door to rear wing gap right, then the front of the door to bonnet gap, then see where the lower gap is. It's impressive that you even managed to get the bottom door to sill gap correct with minimal fuss, most restorations I've seen still struggle with that one. But then again I suspect they're not paying as much attention to the A post position as you have.

[Josef]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the a-posts can also splay outwards. I had, in addition to jacks under the floor, a post and b post, a ratchet strap between the a posts. Less likely to be a problem on the GT6, but @Richard Baines definitely something to watch out for on the Spitfire, as well as making sure your door glass and windscreen frame will fit relative to one another. Dropped a posts can result in the window not closing cause the screen ends up tilted back!