Vitesse 2 liter - strobe timing / pulley markings query

[trigolf]

1 hour ago, johny said:

1 hour ago, johny said:

Well those fans still available secondhand of course

 

I'm going to hang on to my Kenlowe- just in case..🥴..It all still works fine.

[James H]

7 hours ago, trigolf said:

I'm going to hang on to my Kenlowe- just in case..🥴..It all still works fine.

So for whats its worth here are some pics of my fuel and cooling system setup, tried and tested in extreme heat, hope it helps someone :

HUCO 133010 engine compartment fuel pump mounted instead in the boot for maximum suction by and below the tank  http://www.gowerlee.dircon.co.uk/HUCO.html  (ideally needs an emergency cutoff, a WIP). Even though two types are available I have learnt the hard way that electric pumps generally still prefer to push rather than pull and so despite manufacturer claims they do not self prime well. This is also why the extended distance to push the fuel the length of the car is a non issue. My testing was done with various pumps in various positions with the fuel outlet pipe disconnected at the carbs and submerged for close inspection of any air in the supply at all. This setup was the conclusion.

Inline filter high up away from heat by brake servo (battery in boot with cutoff)  

Copper fuel line insulated from vibration and traced over heater/fan box away from engine heat

Heat shields on carbs

Radiator moved within mm of valence, even a bit of the front grill removed from the inside to prevent fouling, its that tight !

Kenlowe fan, set to default trigger temp, mounted with bolt on adjustable support kit within mm of rad providing easy access to the belt and timing marks

Calorstat 74°C summer engine thermostat

 

Edited October 1 by James H

[Pete Lewis]

i would  expect with  74c  stat you have the mixture set  too   rich

as this is well below the triumph specs.and you get a cold engine 

Pete

[James H]

On 01/10/2024 at 19:16, Pete Lewis said:

i would  expect with  74c  stat you have the mixture set  too   rich

as this is well below the triumph specs.and you get a cold engine 

Pete

Pete hi, Ive just moved this post to the "cooling" section as its completely off topic here, my bad. Plugs are regularly checked and fine, no sooting up and the car gets to temp quickly, what can I say... I put an 88° stat in over winter

Edited October 3 by James H

[Pete Lewis]

triumph list 78c as the lowest for high climates

82c is the std european 

too cold =  rich mixtures 

Pete

[James H]

4 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

triumph list 78c as the lowest for high climates

82c is the std european 

too cold =  rich mixtures 

Pete

I use these guys over here https://www.datch.fr/fr/mini-mg-triumph-calorstat-minimgamgbmgttr2tr3tr4tr5tr6spitfiresprigetminor-74a-p-3093.html and only 74°, 82° and 88° offered for the Vitesse, works fine not running rich....

[James H]

Ambient temp must be the key factor here, with climate change etc I'm guessing 6 months of 30°+ would not have been the european norm when Triumph made those listings ?

[James H]

Before trying to get closer to Johny's mpg figures I thought I'd check the manifold vacuum and plugs as a reference with the timing still retarded at an indicated 4-5° ATDC.

Temps have dropped off alot here in the past few days so I'm back to using a slight bit of choke and as you say Pete, the engine temp is indeed now sitting slightly low with the 74° stat so time for the 82° !

Even so the plugs still look ok to me and surely that vacuum at an 850rpm warm idle indicates the timing markings are off and everything is advanced as it should be ? Would that amount of vacuum normally be possible at 4-5° ATDC or can it be even higher ??

 

Edited October 3 by James H

[Pete Lewis]

 suggest you return to basic plug spec  that NGK 5/6ES   yours  seems to have a R in it  they dont like our old low HT 

ive found more cars with poor running and misfires with R suffix plugs than hot dinners 

many say it works ok  thats not how i see it  you are putting a big cork in the HT 

there are some u tubes on tests and it halved the HT at the plug electrode 

my view is bin them , dont follow the myths   stick to basics    it works 

Petye

[James H]

21 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

 suggest you return to basic plug spec  that NGK 5/6ES   yours  seems to have a R in it  they dont like our old low HT 

ive found more cars with poor running and misfires with R suffix plugs than hot dinners 

many say it works ok  thats not how i see it  you are putting a big cork in the HT 

there are some u tubes on tests and it halved the HT at the plug electrode 

my view is bin them , dont follow the myths   stick to basics    it works 

Petye

Sorry Pete, I believe your experiences but my brains just wired differently, I won't bin something that works perfectly.

Based on your negative experience of R suffix plugs I can only see modern day manufacturing/quality control being an explanation, if I and others find them to work so well what would the practical or scientific explanation be otherwise...

One things for sure, I wouldn't want to be an R suffix plug in your vicinty ! 😉

Whats your knowledge on vacuum readings, could I get higher readings with adjustment ?

Cheers, James

Edited October 3 by James H

[johny]

I think its like a lot of things with so many variables. On one engine perhaps the set up needs a high spark voltage to get good ignition whereas another can do just as well with a lower voltage so the plugs can sometimes make a difference. In fact quickly reading the Wikipedia entry on spark plugs it talks about the size of the fireball generated, or kernel as it can be called, altering the apparent ignition timing which is interesting relative to our discussions elsewhere about what setting to use...

[James H]

Variables, the bane of our lives, especially for those with cyclic minds. I try to keep mine as linear as possible but its a hell of a challenge...

I'll just go ahead and play with the timing and see how vacuum, pinging and mpg is affected but keep current setting as a solid reference, cheers

[johny]

Yes try n get those kernels the right size - all part of the fun👍

[Pete Lewis]

vacuum reading all depend on gauge aand engine state but 

in simple terms at idle  around 18-21 ing  is about right 

throttle back /overun  may be  28-31inhg 

drive with light foot  12-15

full throttle   0-2 inhg

with the wrong plugs anything goes but R suffix are designed for modern +32kv coils not the 22kv we have 

if you want optimum performance  the bin is the optimum place for them

a good fat spark jumping to one electrode is far more productive them a corked up spark not knowing what of the three it should jump to

so use your own specification at you leisure.

I cant help 

Pete

 

 

[James H]

2 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

vacuum reading all depend on gauge aand engine state but 

in simple terms at idle  around 18-21 ing  is about right

So I'm alright then at 19ish, thanks for the help, much appreciated 👍

I'll still experiment to see if I can get it even higher with better mpg too but good to know its a decent baseline.

[Pete Lewis]

strange you wish to improve MPG but wont use whats specified

bin the R's and you nearly  double your HT spark voltage 

Pete

Edited October 3 by Pete Lewis

[James H]

27 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

strange you wish to improve MPG but wont use whats specified

bin the R's and you nearly  double your HT spark voltage 

Pete

I would in a heart beat if logic dictated but what you're referring to as specified by Triumph was written prior to the existence of R suffix plugs plus it seems they work for just as many as they don't so you've got to at least let me have this one Pete, come on ... 😉

[johny]

Change them next time round and see if theres any difference👍

[James H]

Just now, johny said:

Change them next time round and see if theres any difference👍

I've already changed to them from the recommended NGK BP6ES and it runs noticeably better, what more can I honestly say apart from not wanting to cause Pete any further distress I think we should leave it there

[James H]

On 27/09/2024 at 23:35, johny said:

However now I run on 95 E5 and pinging has disappeared, so much so that Im following suggestions to advance timing more than factory setting! I have made other modifications over this period but it does seem that ethanol has made the fuel much less prone to pinging...

As mentioned I've only tried the claimed 98 octane over here but we do have this option too so I will give it a try during my timing tests 👍

[Wagger]

One of my projects many years ago was to make a spark gap tester. Spark gaps were used in some domestic cookers to protect against surges.

A spark will occur at a fixed voltage between the electrodes whether you have resistance in series or not. HOWEVER , once the spark has occurred, the resistor will limit the current that flows. Some 'MODERNS' use ignition systems that have a spark of longer duration than old systems. Non resistive plugs could burn out if used in MODERNS. Resistive plugs may foul up more quickly if used on old systems.

Again, HOWEVER, in line suppressors were resistive and so are some ignition leads.

Hope that makes matters less cloudy.

 

[James H]

10 minutes ago, Wagger said:

Hope that makes matters less cloudy.

 

So if I understood well ( I'm a 99% practical guy, 1% academic ), the only thing to potentially look out for with resistive plugs on a Vitesse would be easy fouling ?

[Pete Lewis]

1 hour ago, James H said:

I've already changed to them

thats a good move  and surprisingly its BETTER  

it takes a lot to get guys to try the simple things 

Im not stressed  my cars all run like a dream 

stick to the basics ...they work

Pete

[Wagger]

14 minutes ago, James H said:

So if I understood well ( I'm a 99% practical guy, 1% academic ), the only thing to potentially look out for with resistive plugs on a Vitesse would be easy fouling ?

Basically, yes. Especially if you have resistive leads and suppressors.

My first methods of motorised transport had copper ignition leads using thick insulation with suppressor caps fitted at the ends connecting to the plug.

If I had a weak spark due to a condensor failure during a journey, removing the suppressors and connecting copper to plug would, sometimes, get me home.

In later years, suppressors disappeared and resistive leads became standard.

[James H]

1 minute ago, Wagger said:

Basically, yes. Especially if you have resistive leads and suppressors.

I'm aware of the clear labeling of resistive plugs but not leads in general so I'm not sure of the resistive nature of the leads I have but I will indeed keep the fouling issue in mind, many thanks for the explanation !