EFI Herald

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

                            Well She started first time admittedly like and old tractor and for some reason the Tuner Studio can not see the lambda sensor but the display works so looks like checking my wiring first?

 

She was running very rich and I must admit all this fuel map stuff is new to me so a lot of head and bum scratching.

 

First I tried reducing the cold start enrichment low down, that helped a bit.

 

Then I thought I had read you can tweek the injection amounts by reducing the fuel rail pressure? so I lowered the pressure to 2.5 bar and it is miles better.( about 13 to 13.5 AFR @ 1500 rpm)

 

So presumably I could do the maths to get the fuel map numbers?

 

I was having trouble balancing the throttle bodies is it best to have the throttle plates shut and try and get a tick over on the  bypass bleed screws?

 

Has any body got a basic fuel map for a Spitfire 1500?

 

It looks like the old grey cells are going  to be worked very hard(I have been back peddling on the EFI maps and stuff now I need to read it all up) 

 

I will try another time to attach video clip(the file setting I used was to big and needs converting or something like that?)

 

Roger

 

[Darren Groves]

One thing I wasn't too happy with was the Fuel Pump and Filter arrangement. The high pressure fuel pump and pre-filter are on the boot outrigger and the main filter in the engine bay, these are quite large canisters and difficult to secure properly. I liked Roger's solution to his fuel pump as it was in-tank, so have decided to follow his lead, this allows for the main filter to be relocated into the boot and tidies up the engine bay and the under boot area.

 

I would like to thank Roger to making the fuel pump flange for me, nice job!

 

As the Spitfire and Herald/Vitesse tanks are quite different, I would need to be a little more drastic in making the pump fit. The pump Roger & I have used is from a Classic Range Rover and in the Spitfire it's slightly too tall, but for a Herald it's quite a bit too short so I've had to lengthen it. It's obviously quite important to get the pick-up at the lowest point in the tank and as close to the bottom as possible, to make sure you have access to fuel at low level.

 

Here's the pump extended,I used a 3/8" socket rail as the donor extension as it was a similar shape.

 

 

I wanted to remove the drain plug as all this does is make fitting the tank harder, so this has been cut out. I'll need to add an additional baffle around the pump pick-up to help when fuel is low, so all this was going to be easier with full access to the inside of the tank, so decided just to cut the side off. If you ever wondered what the inside of a Herald/Vitesse tank looks like this is it:

 

 

Whilst the side was off this was an opportunity to enlarge the tank, so I will be adding an additional 7cm to it's width by welding/brazing a band all the way round. My back of a fag packet calculations make the new capacity to be around 11 gallons, so should provide a pretty good range when on longer journeys.

 

Here's a couple of photos of the banding going in and an extension for the original baffle.

 

 

 

More to follow!

 

 

 

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Darren

                    Looking good

 

Roger

[Darren Groves]

Got a bit more on done on the fuel tank today. I've added a baffle around the pump pick-up, this will help at very low fuel though I rarely let the tank get below 1/4 tank.

 

 

The fuel pump flange, the rest of the banding and the side are now all tacked in place. I now need to fully weld/braze, patch where the drain tap was, seal the inside of the tank and paint.

 

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Darren

                    I must say that's a smart flange HA HA

 

I am still fighting the AFR I may try my adjustable bench top power supply tomorrow so I can put the negative side to the sensor earth?

 

Roger

[Darren Groves]

I must say that's a smart flange HA HA

 

It is 

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Darren

                    you appear to have left bigger gaps in your baffle than I have? I only put 2 x 4 mm and 1 x 5 mm holes in mine and there may be a few small gaps at the bottom were the tank sealer has not glued up

 

I worked out (roughly) that it holds 3 to 4 lts and takes 30 to 45 secs for a litre to pass through so unless I am on the Brooklands banking or similar(anti clockwise) with a less than 1/4 full tank or upside down? I do not think I will have fuel starvation.

 

Are you having the pump outlet pipe facing the rear of the tank?

 

I still can not get the Microsquirt to see the AFR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I tried a 3 volt battery supply today and pulled the plug out of the Microsquirt and checked for continuity all ok.

 

I have down loaded the latest firmware and will give that a try if not it must be a faulty unit?(not such a BARGIN?)

 

I think I might just have a go at the alternator wiring later to save my sanity!.

 

Roger

[Darren Groves]

Hi Roger,

 

The shape and orientation of the Herald tank is like the attached image, the black rectangle represents the pump, so even at very low fuel the pump pick-up is going to be submerged. Nothing scientific was done like for yours in terms of baffle design, just a bit of added assistance to stop the fuel sloshing around. The wide/flat design of Spitfire tank means that it's a bit more tricky for you, so I can understand why you spent more time 

 

 

If the gauge it working you've wired it up correctly, it's only one wire back to the ECU so I suspect it's something to do with the unit. Send it back, get a Spartan 2, good price and very simple to set up.

 

Darren

 

 

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Darren

                    I have upgraded???? to the latest firmware now I have some conflicts with the rev counter output?

 

But one thing I did notice it says you can have 2 AFR sensors so when I resolve the conflict I may try that input.

 

If I had not come so far I think I would go back to carbs but I will not let the B*****r beat me or will die in the attempt!

 

Off to see the Vampires tomorrow (blood donors) for a blood letting? 

 

Not one to brag but yes I am it will be Donation 111

 

Roger

 

ps may have to drink a bottle of red wine to make it up again?

[Darren Groves]

A little more work done on the modified fuel tank today. All now fully welded.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

             A bit of an update on my trials and tribulations.

 

As I last reported I had updated the firmware to the latest (I still wonder why it was shipped with such old firmware?)

 

I then proceeded C*****k it up completely(rushing?)

 

I downloaded the official installation manual and printed it out(113 pages!) still that,s only about £1.50 (When all else fails read the instructions and follow them!)

 

So I thought back to the beginning and I reloaded a step at a time in the order they suggested and success I had a running engine again but still no AFR sensor 

 

So a bit more research and I found I had got the 1st EGO port set wrong it needs to be local once that was done and I had set the values and altered the display it was working perfectly and I was able to let the Tunerstudio  software adjust the fuelling.

 

All was going well until I noticed a bit of smoke coming up between the throttle bodies?

 

So after a good look at the NEW exhaust manifold I could see the problem the 2 middle pipes are tight together were they join and it was not sealed!

 

I had to remove the front throttle body, air box, various pipes and cables and finally 2 studs from the head then I could JUST wangle the middle pipes out and run some braze between the 2 to seal them and then do it all in reveres?

 

Still one day I will laugh about all this( was close to taking it all off and refitting carbs but I thought that is defeatist and lots of others have got it working) I bet they are half my age? The older I get the better I was????

 

So tomorrow I will have another play and tidy up the wiring and pipe work(and wonder what the next trial will be? still better than doing them Scooby Doo puzzles?

 

Roger

 

ps off to Stoneleigh Sunday to buy more spares that I can not live without? or to add to the stock on the shelves? 

 

Plus there was the Alternator fiasco? somebody up there has it in for me at the moment? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Darren Groves]

Hi Roger,

 

Nobody said it was going to be easy :-)

 

I don't think the Firmware is too much of issue, there's unlikely to be any major changes from the version it shipped with.

 

Despite all the steps backward, you are still making progress.

 

Have you had any chance to look at the IAC valve yet? I have 2 alternatives to the Bosch I originally bought, but if I have no joy with those I may well rig up a manual cable to increase the idle when needed, after all the ECU is look after the mixture.

 

A bit more progress on the fuel tank today, tidying up the outside. The sealed up holes are in preparation for the tank sealing process.

 

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Darren

                   EASY I had hair when I started (well some) still on the way now?

stiil it looks the dogs B***S

 

I am looking at camshafts for the next engine now?

 

But got to do isle of wight, Spa  and Spain and Portugal first?

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

              I am close to taking it all of and refitting the carb's? or buying MX5!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(wash my mouth out with soap)

 

The saga continues I wish now perhaps I had gone for a single throttle body?

 

I repaired and refitted the exhaust and after a bit coughing and farting I got it running me and the car after wetting the plugs and I thought I was making progress and I letting the autotune do a bit of adjusting.

 

But then it started misfiring and giving puffs of black smoke and back to running more like a tractor

 

 Then I noticed a small puff of smoke from the B****y middle exhaust pipe again(O B*****r or something like that I thought?)

 

So off it all came again!!! this time it was leaking between the 2 pipes at the head end(this time I have filled the gap for about 1" down the pipes? both ends belt and braces)

 

I think I am getting a lot of over fueling at cold starts?(wetting plugs)I put a set of NGK BUR6ET and it fired up but then was misfiring badly so dried and refitted the BP6ES ones

 

I have Bosch injectors fitted 0280 155884  MG Rover (NOS)

 

I have set the flow at 182 cc and I have tried Speed Density and ITB settings and injector dead time @ 0.6ms and  PMW duty cycle  @ 75%(this may be wrong?) and the after start enrichment 45% @ 10degs down to 25% @180 degs The cranking pulse looks high to me 326% @ 10 degs  101% @ 180 degs

 

So any help would be appreciated or just some pointers(or a crate of wine no make that a VAT)

 

Roger

[Darren Groves]

Hi Roger,

 

If you have air leaks before the 02 sensor I don't think you'll be able to tune it, so I would say you'd need to sort the exhaust out before trying anything.

 

I am using the same injectors as you, can't remember if you are a 1300 or 1500, but these settings in the images are mine and work well to get the car running. 

 

 

When cold she consistently fires up after 2-3 seconds of cranking, when warm 1-2, never fails. The megamanual recommends starting the priming & cranking PW% on the lean side, then keep increasing until starting improves as it's easier to recover from a failed over lean start. So after a failed start see if the plugs are wet or dry and then go whichever way is needed. Mine PW%'s are higher than I expected, but work so I'm not too worried. It took me about a week of starting, checking & adjusting to get to something I was happy with.

 

If you haven't got the IAC valve sorted yet, you'll obviously have to keep the revs up manually until the engine is warm so you can then set the warm idle, then once you have a steady warm idle and can tune that, then you can Autotune the warm-up enrichment.

 

You could try these plugs: http://r.ebay.com/hXNT2z they have worked well in mine. Resistor type plugs are better for our set-up, less noise to the ECU.

 

Hang in there, it will be worth it.

 

Darren

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Darren

                    Thank's for the encouragement and the link to very cheap plugs(I have ordered a set)

 

I have refitted the exhaust etc.

 

I have had another look at ALL the settings and made changes and saved under another tune.

 

I will have another go at starting and running this afternoon!

 

I can feel the stress level going up as I type(perhaps I should drink the wine before I start and not after?)

 

Roger

 

ps off to Stoneleigh tomorrow

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Darren

                    I am still having problems?(but at least the exhaust does not leak)

 

The problem I now have is No2 & 3 cylinders are not working as hard as No1 & 4 (judged by exhaust temperature checked with infra red thermometer) plus banging in the exhaust?

 

Have I got the injectors wired right? I followed Trigger Wheels diagram which shows 1 & 3 as bank 1  and 2 & 4 as bank 2?

 

Looking at at your Standard Injection yours shows Injector port type and mine does not?

 

I have checked all the wiring and even swopped the injectors over 1 & 2  and 3 & 4 and there was no change/

 

It must be a software setting I am getting wrong but I am Buggered if I can see it?

 

I even did a compression test just to make sure 2 & 3 cylinders were ok

 

still a day off tomorrow looking at old triumphs and buying parts that I will never use?

 

Roger

[Darren Groves]

Hi Roger,

 

The instructions I got with the kit said to wire Injectors 1 & 2 as bank 1 and 3 & 4 as bank 2, but the megamanual said 1 & 3 as bank 1 and 2 & 4 as bank 2, I done the latter. As you are doing it as batch fire rather than sequential I don't think it really matters.

 

Are all the TB's balanced, maybe 1 & 4 are slightly more open and therefore working that bit harder?

 

Happy hunting at Stoneleigh, I like that event but just a bit too far from deepest Devon.

 

Darren

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

             I am still having problems and have run out of ideas.

 

The problem is the same the No 2 & 3 cylinders do not appear to be getting the same amount of fuel as 1 & 4?

 

I have checked all my wiring injectors1 & 3 on pin 9 and 2 & 4 on pin 10.

 

Double checked the plug leads even tried a new set that are carried as spares and checked that SPK A (IGN 1) is on pin 12 and SPK B on pin 11 via the dual channel ignition module mounted on a finned heat sink and set the Tooth No 1 angle so it is correct(it was about 2 deg retarded)

 

When I have it running I have checked the throttle body balance with my Weber air flow meter and they are within 1 division which should be ok for initial tuning?

 

I have swapped  the injectors over and set them the fire in different order ie. 1 & 2, 3 & 4  did not seem any difference?(I can take the lead off the middle injectors and it keeps running but goes lumpy if I take 1 or 4 off?)

 

I can get the Auto tune to adjust the settings but all it is doing is making 1 & 4 rich and 2 & 3 leanish(2 sooty plugs and 2 not to bad perhaps a bit lean but difficult to tell from static running)

 

The exhaust temperature is about 300/350F for 1 & 4 but only about 100/130F 2 & 3

 

I have carried out a compression test and all cylinders are similar(150 psi) the head has had the ports cleaned up by me(I would not call it ported) and the combustion chamber modified as shown in various books(the lump between the valves removed and blended and all balanced within 0.5cc) and skimmed to give about 9.5 to 1 compression ratio.

 

The camshaft is a Triumph grind as the Mk3  25/65/65/25 so is even and as far as I know in good order as I have not had any clearance changes.

 

I have fitted vacuum take offs to each inlet runner to a common manifold which has a tapping for the fuel pressure regulator and one for the MAP sensor all in 4mm tube.(I would not think this is big enough to transfer fuel?)

 

I have had a set of Bosch Super 4 WR78's delivered today but can not see that making a difference?(GOOD price £6.99 delivered?) for 4?

 

So as you can see I am up S****t creek without a paddle

 

I still do not understand the injector timing and how it is controlled? in batch firing why bother with 2 injector pin outs other than load on the electrical components?

 

So as you can see ANY help would be appreciated or I will have to remove it all and refit the carbs for now and perhaps think of using a single throttle body?

 

Very Frustrated Roger

[Moe]

Hi Roger,

I will try and check my setup this evening as I am running throttle bodies like yourself on my Spitfire. Are you running a cam sensor as well as a crank sensor?

 

I think from memory I have 1&4 on one injector driver and 2&3 on the other but would need to check as it was 2011 I wired it up.

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Moe

               No cam sensor (I did think about it but seeded like even more work and could be added later plus Microsquirt does not do full sequential injection I think)

 

I have 1&3 and 2&4 I think I have tried 1&4 and 2&3

 

This is what is confusing me several people have similar set ups?

 

Unless it is a difference with Microsquirt and Megasquirt?

 

I had some hair and not a Drink problem when I started this project? I think the light at the end of the tunnel has gone out and left me in the dark without a torch?

 

Roger

[Darren Groves]

Hi Roger,

 

Given what you have tried, that you are running batch and have tried different banks and injectors, are you sure it's not a ignition issue? Doesn't sound like fuel, maybe you have 2 & 3 leads on wrong? You changed from Ford EDIS & Coil Pack to ignition drivers, maybe they have gone faulty?

 

When you went to the newer version of the firmware, did some of your ignition settings get changed?

 

Just some thoughts.

 

Stop mentioning the 'Carb' word, it's something simple I'm sure.

 

Keep the faith!

 

Darren

[Moe]

Hi Roger,

I checked my setup and I have injector 1&4 on one driver and 2&3 on the other. I am not running a cam sensor either so our setups should be very similar.

Can't seem to paste in a pic of my injector setup so here it is just typed

 

Control Algorithm    Speed density

Squirts per engine cycle    2

Injector staging    Alternating

Engine stroke     four stroke

Cylinders           4

injector port type   Port injection

number of injectors      4

 

 

You could try these settings, maybe you are getting some sort of charge robbing going on with your injector pairing and staging setup.

 

You could also try pulling the pump fuse and run the injector test in tunerstudio and check the injectors are buzzing, prob best with one connected at a time.

 

Moe.

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Moe & Darren

                               I have checked the plug leads and the coil pack top is marked 1,2,3&4.

 

I tried different leads first then a different coil pack! the only thing I do not have a spare of is the coil pack driver module but is new and good make (Cambiare VE520259) plus I would think they either work or not?

 

All plugs spark when laid on rocker cover and cranked(fuel pump off) plus I tried the new Bosch ones!

 

I have looked at the data logger and the tooth wheel pulse is dead solid and well defined and no sync errors.

 

In the Engine and Sequential settings I do not have Injector port type?(I am sure it was there before I update the firmware?)

 

I will try Moe's settings up to now I have used

 

ITB instead of Speed Density (they said it was best for ITB's?)

 

Injector Staging  Simultaneous  not Alternating

 

Injectors paired 1&3 2&4 but looking at this chart I would think the first over fuels 1&4 but 2&3 perhaps just get wetted? but the second chart is better but still on 1&3 2&4?

 

Or am I reading it all wrong?

 

http://www.useasydocs.com/details/numsquirts.htm

 

But can not select port injection?

 

Can not tinker today as we have the grandchildren rampaging around(still being collected at 5.30 )

 

Ordered more wine from Majestic last night to keep me sane?

 

I am starting to laugh about it now but in that Manic way!!!!!!!!!!

 

The only thing that keeps me going is the fact that lots of people have basically the same setup and say how good it is? and not letting it beat me? HA HA HE HE as they take me off to the funny farm

 

Roger

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve C]

They do say the Lord loves a tryer! Eight pages in, and you are still at it!

 

In case it all gets too much, you know there are these newfangled gizmos you can get, called "carburettors". These are kind of a bog cistern hanging on the side of an air chamber,into which we pump petrol.From the bottom of the bog cisterns we have a bit of tubing leading to the chamber called a "jet". The bodies of these chambers have a "floating piston" inside, damped by a soft spring, and the piston goes up and down all by itself. The clever bit is that as it does, it shoves a "needle" in and out of the "jet tube" where the petrol comes in, releasing more or less petrol, as required by the volume of air rushing through, which is itself regulated by a flap, controlled by a cable linked to your right boot.

 

It's so simple it might just catch on, and requires no electrickery whatever! Simples...

 

Good luck

 

Steve C