Mk1 spitfire outer sill

[Paul Rees]

Have fitted a new floor, new lower A post and B post repair panel.  I'm now test fitting the inner sill and sill strengthener.  Looking at the shape of these I'm assuming that they should all line up straight top and bottom, and that the new outer sill is spot welded to the top and lower section of these new panels.

When I offer up the outer sill (heritage panel) it is straight on top but is curved at the bottom. There isn't enough additional material on the lower A post, sill strengthener and B post patch to fit a curved panel.

Is this panel supposed to be curved ? Has anyone come across this before or am I doing something wrong ?

[Josef]

Is it curved on the car or curved off the car? If off the car you have a bad panel. If on the car you have something not quite right on your inner structures. For example on my Spitfire I had to stick a ratchet strap between the A-posts to bring them in and a jack underneath to correct the bulkhead drop. Once that was right (plus millions of other bfs of support and adjustment...) the sill would fit on straight. 

Sorry, kind of hard to explain, but basically so long as your sill hasn't been supplied wonky you should be able to fit it without curves or bowing.

[Paul Rees]

Thanks it's curved off the car so I suspect it's faulty.

Am I correct in assuming that the lower portion of the A post, sill strengthener and B post patch sit below the new floor panel

[Josef]

Chris' comment in the thread linked and the accompanying diagram will explain better than I can  (Though if you have a replacement floorpan fitted I'm pretty sure the outer lip is shorter than the original so may need metal added).

[Paul Rees]

The car is well braced internally both doors frequently used to reference any possible movement.  It's now on rotisserie.  

Here are the sills and the alignment of the other panels.

[Paul Rees]

Would you consider these curved

[chrishawley]

From the photos looks to me like the sill replacement are a long way off straight and would be a real problem if persuaded to fit as they are. It's no easy thing to achieve, but to be correct the bottom lip of the sill should run straight as a die front to back in both plan and elevation.

Looking at you photos slightly gives me the shudders of all the things that can (and did for me) go wrong at this stage of repairs. Errors included: fixing the front of the sill panel too low on one side of the scutlle: not offering the rear wing and sill panel up together to see how one flowed into the other: not trial fitting the doors early enough in proceedings to asses gaps. Learnt the hard way only to minimally/provisionally attach new panels untill the overall shape and struture is proving to be good.

Do you have a plan of what to do about the not-very -straight sill panels?

[Paul Rees]

Hi Chris

Thanks for the response.  I've emailed Rimmer's to raise the issue as regards curve, I don't think it's acceptable.

I've test fitted the rear wing and it does line up nicely with the B post repair panel and new floor.

What I am experiencing is that steelcraft panels are probably to be avoided?

I have ordered an original left side sill to move forward.  I have test fitted the door with rear wing in situ and door shut lines are good 4-5mm, suggests that nothing has moved significantly?

I plan to disassemble the chassis parts tomorrow and refit the tub to be sure my internal bracing is working.

[Paul Rees]

Some other repairs

[Paul Rees]

[Paul Rees]

[jmh]

They are not supposed to be curved, but they are - even from  factory 🙂

On a very original mk 3, I had 1/4 inch in difference between floor and lip at the middle /front and rear, making the difference on the picture below up to 1/2 an inch.

And - don't try to push lower lip of outer sill up to the floor as the new floor panels flange are not as deep as original: See picture: 

[Paul Rees]

I had seen this and can confirm that the sill strengthener is also wider than the inner sill and floor flange together.

I'm likely going to trim the strengthener so that the drain holes In it ? sit in line with inner sill ?

Rimmer's have got back to me and are contacting their supplier.  Not sure how long this will take?

 

 

[Paul Rees]

Or should I trim differently?

[thescrapman]

I think Heritage put their stickers on Steelcraft panels now.

I think the tooling is pretty worn.

I picked up a Austin Rover labelled one at Stoneleigh yesterday and have a Stanpart one as well, neither have a curve like yours.

[Mark B]

I've recently been replacing sills etc. On a mk3 Spit. Raised similar questions. I had what I believed to be steel craft,(up in the loft for 20 years) Original Austin Rover, and recently purchased Heratige sills to play with. Heratige were the best fit in my opinion, all subtly different, all curved along the bottom edge up towards the A post. Heratige ones curved slightly less than that AR version. All appear similar until they are fìxed in place along the top edge, and the bottom of the sill is pulled in to meet the edge of the floor. Then the differences show.

https://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/9607-spit-mk3-door-gap/

[Paul Rees]

Thanks Mark

I've read the thread attached, and from what I can tell, the new floor flange depth isn't correct, so my sill shouldn't fit organically.  The natural position will be that the new lower A post, new sill strengthener and new B post lower sections will be below the new floor flange? Therefore the new outer sill will attach to the excess material below the floor flange?

[jmh]

1 hour ago, Paul Rees said:

...will attach to the excess material below the floor flange

Yep. If you trim this off, your will have to press the new outer sill up resulting in a poor door fit. 

 

[Paul Rees]

Thanks jmh - as has been said earlier I can always add a strip later.  Although it is frustrating that the pressing of the floor holds back 1/4 inch ?

The only issue as I see it is going to be how high the plug welds are going to be on the new floor flange.

[Paul Rees]

By means of an update - I have fettled with the sill and applied some brute force and a lot of ignorance, I have managed to get it near.....

See pictures

I had a big gap between the door and the A post about 10mm I couldn't see how to resolve this other than move the sill towards the door.  So that's what I did

Now this has left me with the consequence of not being able to place the sill cap into the sill it looks like I'm going to have surface mount it. Is this a recognised way to do this ?

 

[chrishawley]

There’s a great deal to think about. I hope it’s ok if I offer a few observations

I know that ‘photos don’t tell the whole story and are only a snapshot in time. But it does appear that the gap between the rear edge of the door and the forward edge of the wing is very tight. The ‘general gap’ on a Spit is 5/32 to 3/16 inch and this applies quite importantly to the rear edge of door gap. One possibility is that the door needs to go forward somewhat and possibly this would reduce the 10mm excess at the front.

Next the ‘general gap’ measurement does not apply particularly well to the gap between the front edge of the door and the rear face of the sill in the A-post position. This is because as the door is opened the its front edge swings forward (due to the geometry of the hinge location). Thus, the gap at this particular point needs to be just that bit more generous to allow for that swing. So, of the 10mm excess at the front a couple of mil would be taken up by allowing the sill to sit a tiny bit more forward.

Now the sill front closing panel: Can’t say I’m super keen on attaching the closing panel externally. Sure, it’s possible, but the aesthetic might be a bit doubtful. For myself I’d prefer that the closing panel is attached to the sill prior to fitment with welds made from the reverse. But there are two features of the scuttle panel in this area of importance. Firstly that the scuttle panel is at no point flat – even at it’s most flat it’s still a compound curve. Secondly the inner edge of the closing panel (where it has the lip) should sit in quite a deep, matching, rebate in the scuttle panel (a bit like a very deep joddled edge). Can’t say how deep – but easily a couple of mil. Ot to put it another way; the scuttle may need to be worked to accept the closing panel rather than forcing the closing panel to fit on to the scuttle.

Related to this, and judging form the ‘photos, the folded down lip on the sill top looks very poorly pressed. It should have a crisp egde, straight, and running at a right angle to the length of the sill. Maybe the lip can be corrected/worked giving a closing panel a better chance to sit nicely.

I hope I’m not torturing the details too much. I greatly sympathise with the difficulties involved when dealing with repro panels of marginal quality. I’ve had worse!!! I recently had some repair panels for an XJ6 that bore no relationship to the authentic shape whatsoever and were binned straightway.

[Paul Rees]

Hi Chris

I've just returned from garage and have concluded pretty much the same.  I've decided to bin the steelcraft panel and start again, I'd seen Chris Fishers YouTube video it shows the bulkhead depression that allows better fitment of the sill end cap, so I need to re-work that.

In moving the sill forward I've messed up the connection between the sill and the rear wing.

Onward and upward !!

 

[Paul Rees]

As regards the gap at the B post the hinges are adjusted as forward as possible so can't see how I improve this?

[thescrapman]

You need to fit the screen frame and put glass in the door, to make sure you have the gaps right higher up.

[Paul Rees]

Back on it and I think it's getting there?

The B post gap is now much better 

I've got the sill end cap near but more fettling to be done 

And A post gap is at 9mm door can't go any further forward 

Final question, should the line from rear panel to front of sill all line up exactly?