Advice on Electronic Ignition for Gt6 2000 Late 1973 (Delco D204) Ballasted wiring

[Martin V]

Car is just in for new oil seals and a few other bits and it was mentioned to me that Accuspark coil and ignition pack may not be the system of choice (as per fitted by PO). Perhaps Lumenition Magnetronic would be sensible not huge cost upgrade.

I've been reading through endless reviews and forums (here and others) which took me down paths including: Optical Lumenition systems (until I read that the very high temps under GT6 bonnet are not great for these otherwise great systems); 123 Ignition (the various models but these all need to change the tacho which I'd rather not do with the integrated warning lights); and back to the various providers of Magnetic ignition conversions to fit into my Delco D204 distributor.

I liked the sound of the optical but no good if it will fail in the hot environment of a 2000 Gt6. I also liked the technical attributes of the 123 in case of doing some more competition driving one day but the Tacho conversion is costly and most likely this car will not hit a competitive track!

Suggestions / GOOD experiences of Ignition pack heirarchy & Coil combo for my Delco D204 (w Vac advance) & Ballasted set-up? It seems that some of the brand options do not cater for my Delco?

Lumenition do seem to do a fitting kit for Delco and I tink possibly on club shop listed as "2000 2500 2.5PI Vitesse" unless this is wrong for my car?

Aldon not sure of these models as couldn't see a correct match?

Pertonix flame thrower 1.5ohm coil with 1162A Ignitor for Delco 6 cyl w Vac advance

Do you simply get what you pay for?

 

[Pete Lewis]

only had experience with aldon on the 1600 rorty Vit6  perfect for 10 years

current 2000 mk2 has lumenition optical and has been faultless since 2014

recent repairs to a spitfire had a failed 123 fitted with permanent earthed dizzy feed  and fitted a accuspark to replace it which needed a new module after a days work 

this was soon replaced by supplier but fit an old slave from a herald and that worked fine .

so quality looked good but didnt work well at all .

the idea that things fail under a hot bonnet has to be a bit of a myth most all work in the temperature range on normal driving (the fails will be  down to a number of other things }

as for ballast many elec units work on a voltage range of 6 - 18v and with a ballasted feed on a poor battery it is easy to drop the coil voltage below the 6v

operation range   it is generally accepted you need to drop/bypass the unit feed to a full 12v supply and use a 3 ohm coil ( the ballasted one is 1.5ohms 

and if fed with 12v will double the HT blow rotors and fail dizzy caps and the higher current will blow leccy modules and burn points 

they do need to be matched and not mixed ,

Pete

 

[johny]

Garages love to suggest changing stuff as it generates income, plain and simple! Ignition is generally not a problem on our cars and even points work well enough so the only reason for changing to electronic is to save the maintenance involved not, despite what people might say, more power, economy, smoothness or any other excuse.

The disadvantage of electronic systems is that if they fail (and they all will at some point) youre stuck by the side of the road changing the unit and trying to reset the timing. For this reason I have Accuspark fitted and keep a cheap spare unit (just sensor from ebay 11 pounds delivered) in the car which I can change over in 5 mins using the small allen screws without affecting the timing....    

[dougbgt6]

I have the same 73 late GT6 with ballasted system and Aldon electronic ignition. The EI was sold as the correct one for my blasted system. Difficult to convert the late 73 to non-ballasted as it has a resistive wire (white with pink stripe) in the loom rather than a ballast resistor on the bulkhead.

You have to reset the timing when installing the EI. My engine started straight away and only needed slight adjustment. I keep the points, screw driver, feeler gauge and assorted bits in a plastic bag under the passenger seat, a decade has slipped by and I've never needed to open the bag.

Doug

[Pete Lewis]

agree with the idea on the old points after all they as a system have only lasted 50 years  whats not to like 

all the mass market elecy units are a electronic switch to replace the mechanical points they little else apart from what Jonny has stated   

makes you lazy at servicing 

Pete

[Martin V]

Thanks guys. Yes the resistance wire is within the loom with one lead to the coil +ve (White Yellow). I might even detach that wire from the starter solenoid ( into which I believe the resistance circuit feeds into prior to the coil feed (WY) to coil +ve. i.e. my car is after KE 20001 ) and instead run a 12v feed wire from the ignition switch #3 direct to the coil to enable use of 12v non ballast coil. I did think to go back this topic depending on options available to me sticking to ballast system but I think 12v is anyway the more modern use case for coils.

@Pete Lewis Does that sound how you would suggest to create a 12v non ballast feed? I have to find my friends message to check my recall 🙂 I can check with them anyway.

 

btw Aldon looks exactly same as PerTronix  #1169 ignition kit = Aldon #1169   ..............is it just badged different for different markets perhaps?

 

@dougbgt6Doug please could you confirm the details of your Aldon ignition and coil used? I think it must be the Ignitor 1 #1169 which seems to be the one for 6 cylinder D204. It then looks like they warn about overheating on their own ballast coils which are meant for fast road/race. Whereas they do a nice Road use 12v non ballast coil in black or chrome #40511. Looks like they only sell the Spit kit on TSSC shop.

@johnyThis time I can really trust the suggestion by the garage as he is a very helpful and friendly local member of TSSC 🙂 and I fully trust him with my car, he was speaking from painful experience with the same set up just suggesting for reliability I might consider changing it. But yes I generally get your point with most road cars / garages 🙂 

 

[johny]

1 minute ago, Martin V said:

@johnyThis time I can really trust the suggestion by the garage as he is a very helpful and friendly local member of TSSC 🙂 and I fully trust him with my car, he was speaking from painful experience with the same set up just suggesting for reliability I might consider changing it. But yes I generally get your point with most road cars / garages 🙂 

Certainly there have been problems reported with Accuspark type units (apart from being connected the wrong way round as sometimes happens) but you have to remember that some product issues do actually get resolved and then of course its very difficult to get rid of the reputation once gained! As I say I do think you need to carry a replacement for whichever type you fit so my idea is to have the most convenient....

[Martin V]

Just now, johny said:

Certainly there have been problems reported with Accuspark type units (apart from being connected the wrong way round as sometimes happens) but you have to remember that some product issues do actually get resolved and then of course its very difficult to get rid of the reputation once gained! As I say I do think you need to carry a replacement for whichever type you fit so my idea is to have the most convenient....

Yes thanks for this sound advice, for sure if I change the current set up I would plan to keep the components as a get me out of trouble back up set up just in case.

[dougbgt6]

Martin,

I have the standard ballasted 1.5 ohm coil. It's been 10 years since I bought the EI and Aldon marketing has changed, all I can tell you is it was sold as suitable for ballasted system but I can't find it on Aldon's site. However, you may not be aware Aldon and Pertronix are the same thing and on the Pertronix site you can read this:

"All Electronic Ignition Conversion Kits are 12-volt negative ground kits unless otherwise noted. If you need a 6-volt negative ground or 6 or 12-volt positive ground kit, please contact our tech department at 909-599-5955 or message us."

So Pertronix still offer ballasted EI.

Pertronix High Performance Ignition & Exhaust Products (pertronixbrands.com)

I should also add my coil is bolted to the engine and gets pretty hot anyway.

Doug

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by dougbgt6

[Pete Lewis]

running a white from the ign switch to the coil +ve is the normal way most would take to  byass,  just detach the ballast 

from the short pig tail at the switch ,leave in place should you wish to return it some day.

you will need a 3 ohm coil 

the white /yellow from the solenoid could be disconnected as the 12v  boost for the ballast idea is not now required 

bolting the coil to the block is actually a cooling idea its on a substantial mount and heat from the coil is passed to the block which has a cooling system and keeps a stable temperature    this might sound a bit daft but thats the reason for the design    used by any others of the day 

Pete 

 

[Martin V]

59 minutes ago, dougbgt6 said:

Martin,

I have the standard ballasted 1.5 ohm coil. It's been 10 years since I bought it and Aldon marketing has changed, all I can tell you is it was sold as suitable for ballasted system but I can't find it on Aldon's site. However, you may not be aware Aldon and Pertronix are the same thing and on the Pertronix site you can read this:

"All Electronic Ignition Conversion Kits are 12-volt negative ground kits unless otherwise noted. If you need a 6-volt negative ground or 6 or 12-volt positive ground kit, please contact our tech department at 909-599-5955 or message us."

So Pertronix still offer ballasted EI.

Pertronix High Performance Ignition & Exhaust Products (pertronixbrands.com)

I should also add my coil is bolted to the engine and gets pretty hot anyway.

Doug

 

Thanks Doug, just read the manuals for both items on the US site and it is clear to do as my friend and Pete had advised anyway to create 12v supply.

[Martin V]

8 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

running a white from the ign switch to the coil +ve is the normal way most would take to  byass,  just detach the ballast 

from the short pig tail at the switch ,leave in place should you wish to return it some day.

you will need a 3 ohm coil 

the white /yellow from the solenoid could be disconnected as the 12v  boost for the ballast idea is not now required 

bolting the coil to the block is actually a cooling idea its on a substantial mount and heat from the coil is passed to the block which has a cooling system and keeps a stable temperature    this might sound a bit daft but thats the reason for the design    used by any others of the day 

Pete 

 

Perfect thanks Pete.

Looks like I need to buy some wire and put my order in😊.

 

thanks all for your advice.

[johny]

2 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

bolting the coil to the block is actually a cooling idea its on a substantial mount and heat from the coil is passed to the block which has a cooling system and keeps a stable temperature    this might sound a bit daft but thats the reason for the design    used by any others of the day 

Wow they could have made a better job of the arrangement for heat transfer from coil to block then!

[Martin V]

As an update guys I can now confirm I DROVE the car back from The Motorist who had replaced engine / gear box and diff front drive seals for me (plus clutch ruined by oil, recored original rad, new blue fan). Whilst when I got it home I still had to resolve the OD side plate (over the filter) which was leaking and tweak a few filler plug type seepage areas, the car is now usable for the first time since i bought it four months ago (thanks PO ;-)). Infact the drive home from The Motorist was my longest driving experience ! (followed by my pal).

On this injection topic.....

I recently fitted my new Aldon Delco ignition pack and their ballast less Ignitor coil with a direct feed wire from ignition switch and the corresponding +/- wires direct to the coil terminals.

This allowed (as per Pete Lewis and local friend's advice Thanks Pete!) removal original Ballast wire connection which on my loom was also the connection to coil from the solenoid bypass starter feed. I also removed the parallel implemented ballast physical resistor that local garage had fitted recently. I kept the connectors available from old set up with wires tidied away and the old set up with connectors on just in case I need to flip back at some point but I do not envisage that with this higher quality kit from Aldon.

I re-set timing after getting the car started and it now starts, runs spot on at ~850rpm and my tacho cable is no longer rammed on the lid of my petrol pump. I believe  the set up was previously stuffed up with the rotor arm/trigger/ignition pack alignment not being correct at TDC when whomever put back together with the old Accuspark kit which caused the tacho cable crazy position on the pump lid.

Just need to make small adjustment to carb airflow when I have the enthusiasm as front sucking in a little more.

Thanks again for the advice as this removed any dodgy wiring that I might have had, removed the duplicated ballast set up done by garage and cleaned up my wiring.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Martin V

[Pete Lewis]

as you have amk3 there is a good chance you have temperature compensators on the side of each carb 

small casing with plastic cover only held on with   2 screws  ( top adjustable CDSE150 ) 

the small assy is also using two 0 rings to seal it to the carb body .

these over time become quite useless and i the small plunger inside is not fully seated will bypass air round the throttle plates and you will never set the idle mixture or speed properly  the answer is to  remove the plastic cover and screw the small nut to CLOSE the plunger for good, it is a emission device to weaken hot engines mixture.

if its open at normal  temps .  any adjustments you make will be wrong   get the ruddy things closed 

as for mixture best remove the air piston and adjust the small delrin washer on the needle head to be level

with the base of the piston thats the basic start setting point as used on production .

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Pete Lewis

[Martin V]

19 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

as you have amk3 there is a good chance you have temperature compensators on the side of each carb 

small casing with plastic cover only held on with   2 screws  ( top adjustable CDSE150 ) 

the small assy is also using two 0 rings to seal it to the carb body .

these over time become quite useless and i the small plunger inside is not fully seated will bypass air round the throttle plates and you will never set the idle mixture or speed properly  the answer is to  remove the plastic cover and screw the small nut to CLOSE the plunger for good, it is a emission device to weaken hot engines mixture.

if its open at normal  temps .  any adjustments you make will be wrong   get the ruddy things closed 

as for mixture best remove the air piston and adjust the small delrin washer on the needle head to be level

with the base of the piston thats the basic start setting point as used on production .

 

Thanks Pete, yep I have those compensators on the carbs.  I actually inspected them a while back as the PO had over tightened the old covers and then used tank tape on one to seal it. I bought new OE covers and whilst I had the covers off I did inspect and lightly "dust" down the inside and check the position of the plungers. They seem to be seated and the new covers went on OK after some sharp blade adjustments.

Thanks for the heads up and I'll check these are not having any interference on the carbs next year. The airflow imbalance on my carbs is small and is more likely that the throttle linkage was tightened up without the correct air flow balance, again by PO.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Martin V

[dougbgt6]

Martin,

The compensators are tricky things and can easily be repaired to destruction. if you're interested in how to set them up it's detailed here. Have a look and then do what Pete suggests! 

 Carburetors — Buckeye Triumphs

Doug

[Stratton Jimmer]

My GT6 has a Triumph Tune engine fitted with a Lucas 22D6 dizzy, Pertronics Igniter alongside a 6volt coil and runs very well.

[Pete Lewis]

ive not looked a the specific specs of the various systems available the troubles of voltage may have been addressed

they used to have a operational range of 6 to 18volts   and with a poor battery state on a cold day a ballasted coil can 

drop below the 6v and give you problems hence why many add or bypass to give the unit  full ignition 12v supply 

if it works as a ballast thats fine 

the idea to bypass came about due to owners having problems , its not just a conjured up myth 

pete