Help Please - No Spark!!

[lil-nicky]

I've wired the accuspark as the instructions for a ballast system - the diagram shows the negative from the accuspark to the negative on the coil.  The positive goes to the wire from the ignition to the coil, prior to the ballast resistor.  Its now not there though so shouldn't be the problem?

 

Re the 12 volts at the cap, I did think it should be higher.  What should I be expecting? 

 

If I've got it right then to test the coil and the points I taken the HT lead off the dist cap and stick a plug in the end, then touch it to the engine block.  Spark means good coil/ points, no spark means bad?

 

Your right with new isn't always ok and I agree, I've checked and the old leads give no change.

 

LN

[Pete Lewis]

is the pickup earthed through the dizzy body same as with points needs that little flexi wire plate the casing

 

Pete

[lil-nicky]

Hmmm, I don't think I'm quite stupid enough to stick a lead in my gob and crank the engine, I can understand the very basics.  That said I just can't get my head around this particular problem.  Apologies if this make me sound like I'm not listening but like I said way back - electrics just isn't my strong point.

 

LN

[Pete Lewis]

most lecy units need 3 connections

a lead to the neg coil 

a   pos + feed  from a 12v source

and the pickup needs its base earthed to complete the circuit, hence need for the base plate wire

 

if the dizzy is not earthing the pick up it wont work just by being connected to the coil neg- it has to earth the neg downstream of the coil  after the pick up module

 

Pete

[DerekS]

Ok so it's late at night but here's a really daft suggestion based on my own experience. Leave it for a day or two days, chill out and find something completely different to think about. It could just help to polarise your thoughts. I'm sure that most of the guys/ladies will agree that your problem will be something really basic but hiding itself in a corner.

[Darren Groves]

Autosparks.co.uk or 12vplanet.co.uk can supply the wire.

 

Are you sure the 12v supply is live during cranking?

 

Darren

[lil-nicky]

I'm certain it'll be something simple. I'd probably have it cracked by now but I'm working away atm, only back in Sunday's.

I did test the output a couple of weeks back and it was throwing out 12v to the dist cap while turning the ignition key. Is that correct or should the voltage be higher by that point?

 

Ln

[Pete Lewis]

the 12v feed to the pickup is internal , from the wires to the pickup,

you mention the 'cap' the cap only distributes the HT 22'000volts when the coil is triggered.

 

hard to explain in words but

you feed the coil pos+ with 12v when cranking, and 6 v when on ignition and the ballast is used you need to ground/earth the coil Neg- to check these voltages with a meter reading on the neg- terminal.

 

the wire from the coil neg- to the dizzy pick up is the same trigger line as with points this wire is used to dump the coil primery and this makes the HT 22kv for your spark via the dizzy cap and rotor arm to the plugs.

 

there has to be some other earth to make the circuit complete , this is as said normally the pickup base earths via the dizzy base plate and must be wired to the dizzy outside body.

 

then your battery feeds the ign switch , the switch feeds the coil, the coil lead is earthed via the pick up and the dizzy earths the neg back to the battery

 

well something like that

its seems you have the last part of the circuit is missing ???

 

so earth the coil neg and measure the votlage

dont stick leads in gob , can be enlightening , hair on end and eyes go red, things you need drop off

 

Pete

[dougbgt6]

Nicky, reading back from the beginning of the thread a number of suggestions/things to check have been added. It is not clear that you have done any of them. This causes mass confusion.

 

First, do you, or do you not, have a ballast wire? Dull white with a feint pink strip, one end will be on the ignition switch. If you are trying to add a ballast resistor as well, this will cause more problems.Two resistances of the same value in parallel will present a resistance of half the value. You won't be dropping to 6 volts, but 9 volts which will eventually knacker your coil.  

 

Second, Aidan found a link that says Accuspark won't work with a ballasted system so why are you persisting with it?

 

Third, Pete and I have both pointed out that there should be HT at the distributor cap, thousands of volts, not 12 volts. Please check and let us know. If it's 12 volts you've wired it wrong.

[lil-nicky]

1/  Yes.  There is a white / pink wire that goes from the ignition to the coil positive. 

 

2/  I've taken the accuspark off atm and have a new set of points in.

 

3/  It's 12volts at the cap.

 

LN

[dougbgt6]

So Nicky, a bit clearer. You have a ballast wire!    Do NOT install the ballast resister , unless you intend to remove the ballast wire. With both connected it may damage the coil. The coil should measure around 1.5 ohms. 

 

Set of points is good, because it looks like the Accuspark won't work with a ballasted system.

 

!2 volts at the cap? That's not right,   unless you mean IN the cap, on the points? If not, which connector on the cap has 12 volts?

[AidanT]

Hi Nicky

 

I assume you have also fitted a new condenser along with the points? With these you should now only have one thin wire coil to distributor along with the HT king lead

 

Just a thought - if you could add a picture or two it might help

 

Aidan

[dougbgt6]

Just to put it another way, the coil has a white/pink and a white/yellow on the + coil terminal and one wire from the - coil terminal to dizzy. Plus the heavy HT wire from coil to dizzy cap.

[Pete Lewis]

You still need the short flexible wire to connect the contact base plate to the dizzy body !!!!!

Is there one actually fitted

 

often runs from condenser fixing screw to the base plate fixing screw

 

pete

[lil-nicky]

Ok, bear with me and I'll check on Sunday. Does the white pink wire need to be any special wire or can I swap it out for a new piece?

[Pete Lewis]

the white pink is a resistive wire which drops the 12v to 6-8 volt

it replaced the separate ceramic ballast resistor   found on many  ( not just triumph )

 

if you replace it ( bypass or whatever ) you need to fit a 3ohm 12v coil as the replacing will remove the 'ballast' voltage dropping effect

 

if you leave a 1.5 ohm coil on and run it on 12v you double the amps  and double the HT   now that does blow ecu/pick ups /modules . burnt points blow rotors and fail condensers 

 

think weve said beware of coils marked as 12v ballasted these are 6v coils 

put a simple meter on ohms and check across the disconnected blade terminals 

ballast must have 1.5 ohm

full 12v must have 3 ohms 

 

you worry me with the continual 12v at the cap  ??????  this makes no sense   there nothing at the HT terminals on the CAP

 

onlt when the points fire the coil then its  around 22,000v  more or less 

 

Pete

[dave.vitesse]

Pete If you run most electronic ignition modules on a 6v coil without the ballast resistor yes it can cause burn out of it's switching section due to double the current. 

 

The accuspark must be wired as given in their instructions. Yes you are correct if the ballast resistor is bypassed then as said the current doubles and may burn out the unit. Also on a ballast system if the main 12 Volt supply is taken from the + tag on the coil then the module will not receive 12 volts. Not only receiving a reduce supply it will be pulsed every time the electronic points close and the coil draws current. As a result the unit may not work. But should be undamaged.

 

With the ballast system the voltage at the coil + tag is only 6v when the points close and and coil draws current.. Not current no voltage drop hence 12 volts when measured with a high resistance meter.

 

The white pink is a resistive  wire in the loom appeared on all 1970's models.

 

Also applying the full 12v to a 6v coil will after some time causes the coil and points to over heats, which can causes either to fail. Common problem with the Herald and Vitesse a few years ago where the customer had be sold a 6v coil instead of the correct 12v type.

 

Dave

[lil-nicky]

Ok people hold those thoughts - your losing me. I'll take pictures of everything and post for you to dissect. I'll apologise again for not understanding electrics. I just can't get my head round ohms, volts, amps, resistance etc.

[dougbgt6]

Dave, Aidan has already pointed out, from Accusparks own documentation, that their electronic ignition won't work on a ballasted system with a coil of less than 1.4 ohms. And Nikky has already told us he bought a 1.4 ohms  coil. So it's on the edge of what will work ,maybe it will, maybe it won't. Which is why he's taken off the Accuspark and gone back to points.

 

http://www.accuspark.co.uk/fitting_guide.html

 

 

What none of us understand is how has he got 12 volts on the dizzy cap?  I once work in electronics but Nikky has managed to confuse me!

[dave.vitesse]

Doug, if the ballast resistor is in circuit with a 1.4 ohm coil this would give a resistance of 2.9 ohms just 0.1 ohm less than the 3 ohms. This should should work OK. Its if the 1.4 ohm coil was wired in without the ballast resistor then this may draw too much current for the module to handle.  

 

As Pete has said the voltage at the dizzy cap will be around 20,000 volts. This is of course is when the points open and is only there for a very short time. The 12 volts found at the dizzy cap maybe the way the meter probs are being connected. If you are not used to electrics its not easy. 

 

I agree with Nikky, when in doubt go back to the points set-up.

 

Dave

[lil-nicky]

Pictures are now in my gallery and voltage is as follows:

 

Ignition Position                                     ii               iii

 

coil +ve                                                12            12

coil  -ve                                                 3               3

coil HT                                                  12            12

st sol ignition wire                                   0             12

st sol from coil                                       12            12

st sol top nut                                         12            12

st sol bottom nut                                    0              12

 

This is the same with a 6v and a 12v coil.

 

LN

[Pete Lewis]

The photo, s help a little but not clear they are of what we need
from the back of the ign switch its showing the dull white pink trace wire thats the ballast resistor wire this should end up breaking out the harness at /and be connected to the coil positive terminal
there should also be a white yellow runs from a terminal on the solenoid and also be connected to the coil positive( some this is on the starter feed terminal some have a separate lucar blade to use for the white yellow) it must not be on the terminals with the brown wires.
the white red at the sol is the feed from the ign switch to make it crank over.

from the negative coil terminal there is only one wire to the dizzy points

we dont have a picture of whats inside the dizzy so cant advise on how your points connect
there tends to be two design a post and nut with plastic insulators the wires from coil and condenser must be under the plastic insulator not on top of it

if you have the type where the coil feed and condenser are joined and simply hook in the points spring
there is less to go wrong

again ....getting bored now, there must be a short flexible wire that earths the moving points base plate to the outer case of the dizzy ......please check its important and you dont seem to want to confirm this

we cant suggest remotely at a distance and pre guess solutions if you dont give us the clues we ask for
to try to  help you.

 

using the white pink feed   means you must use the  1.5 ohm ballast 6v coil ( or a coil marked 12v ballasted)

to check the resistance set your meter to the small headphone ohms symbol and check across the two blade terminals

Pete

[DerekS]

This won't help your problem but it may save you having a nasty accident, NEVER go in to car electrics wearing either a ring- as in one of the pics- or a watch. Basic safety, look after yourself. A pic of the distributor inside is needed. Good luck.

[Pete Lewis]

Good point Derek, in our rectification shop there were often burnt wrists and fingers from

shorting out rings and braclet watch straps, and eyes from sparks off dropped tools making involuntary contact with flash bang wallop

 

good call how about a H and S page to record all the antics of life??

 

pete

[lil-nicky]

Sorry yes, there is a little earth wire that goes from inside the dist, over the edge and connects to the outside.  I've had it off and cleaned it so it should be fine. 

Re the white / pink and white / red wires, what would be the result if they were mixed up?

 

LN