Camber query on Vitesse 2 Litre

[daverclasper]

Hi. Haynes manual gives unladen figures,(not ideal, I understand), of front 3, and a 1/4 degrees, rear 2 degrees.

On the earlier Vit models (and Heralds), the rear often looks as it if has loads more pos camber than the front.

Is this another Haynes miss print?, or am I not getting something?.

Cheers, Dave 

[Pete Lewis]

my WSM gives H and V as   front 2deg pos   rear 2deg neg  static laden

spitfire 123   has 3deg neg  rear camber  

Pete

[daverclasper]

Thanks Pete. Haynes don't appear to say wether that's pos or neg, for some reason?.

Dave 

[JohnD]

daverc,

If you follow the page down you'll see that "-1degree" quoted for late GT6 IIIs.    By convention, the '+' is assumed otherewise.

But all the Haynes quoted suspension settings are from the original manuals, and no one is running on crossplies anymore, so ignore that table.    1 to 1 1/2 negative  is better on radials, because of their more flexible side walls.     Tyre wear can be a slow guide, or tread temperature to know more quickly.   Also, if you have understeer, make the fronts more negative.

The rear is the Triumph's Achilles Heel.    It's not adjustable, except by raising the spring.     The normal arrangement (Rotoflex) takes the camber from static +2 to -1 in bump and +8 (!!) in droop.   It's bump that's important and a 50mm (2") spacer will take you to half a degree positive in static position to half a degree negative in bump.    A benefit, if you don't carry sacks of concrete in the boot.

The standard bracket is fixed, but variants, and even adjustable brackets have been devised.     The optimum combination of a 25mm spacer and a "racing" bracket, that moves the pivot 25mm down and 5mm out will give you a static camber of minus 2, wth a bump of minus 1, and even in droop only +1.   

 

John

[daverclasper]

Cheers John. good info. I'm a tootler and some motorway trips. Don't need prime handling, though don't want heavy tyre wear, so just trying to understand basic concepts.

I like the temp measurements idea and will take my baking probe out with me, as I think gives an idea of surface area (any one fancy tar bread).  

Thanks, Dave

[JohnD]

A needle probe is the ideal, so if yours is sharp enough!

I use an IR gun, but you have to be really quick, as the surface cools down rapidly. The ideal for road use is an even temp across the tread, possibly a bit cooler on the outside.   

John

[Pete Lewis]

camber wont cause excessive or rapid tyre wear   

 its  the sideways scrub from incorrect toe will remove rubber so much  faster than any other geometry errors and is the usual culprit for tread disappearing 

apart from max speed on roundabouts etc.

 

[daverclasper]

Just out of interest John, with your ready at hand, maths/physics etc. Most of my driving is done solo. What could the typical change in camber on these cars, with extra front passenger/rear passengers?

I'm guess I'm interested in acceptable tolerance for low milaege, with my driving style.

Dave     

[daverclasper]

Cheers Pete. Your reply came in just before my last one.

Dave

[Pete Lewis]

one good reason they state static ride heights before any measuring   or you get errors . 

not many tyre depots will bother , reset the track unladen and youre back for tyres sooner than later ,  any idea of

"you must have hit the kerb sir " is myth

pete

[JohnD]

Thank you, Pete!     

In the US, there was a dealer option, of a spacer to be fitted to the left front spring.   This was said to compensate for the driver and the fuel tank being on that side.   

[Pete Lewis]

spacers or long springs to level the car on cambered roads was quite common,,  and I guess you racers set the cars to suit certain tracks 

Pete

[JohnD]

Thank you, Pete, but that's above my grade!    I do remember to slacken off the dampers for wet weather - the problem is to remember to stiffen them again for the next outing!

[Moonshiner]

My car is a Mk II Vitesse (rotoflex) convertible which I bought around 4 months ago.

I Recently installed new rear trunnion bolts, new donuts and then converted to tele shocks as the old lever-arm shocks were clapped and for me, there really was no question about the way to go. The car now feels heaps better without any clattering from the back end and it only shakes it’s arse a wee bit from side to side over bumps.

I am given to understand that the the correct number of rear spring leafs for this car is 11 which I have and the spring fitted to my car is very new. Before dropping the car off the ramp, I sprayed between the spring leafs with a lubricant and when I checked after a short run, the amount of rear wheel +ve camber was excessive.

I then slung 2 x off bags of chicken feed & a small bag of gravel in the boot (I have owned Vitesse’s before) did another run of a few miles and then measured across the wheel rims (not the tyres) with a calibrated Clinometer which identified 2.6 Deg. +ve camber.

What I am aiming for is around 1.5 deg. -ve camber. I could mess around removing a spring leaf, or as was suggested, turn one of the leaves to reduce the curvature of the spring thus reducing the +ve camber but I would prefer to fit adjustable rear wishbones thereby arriving at a better engineered result.

Has anyone out there fitted adjustable rear wishbones to a Mk II Vitesse and if so, what type / make were they and how did you get on ??

 

[johny]

According to the workshop manual the heavier mk2 saloon wheels go to -2º camber with 4 passengers so I would have thought the installation between diff and spring of one of the lowering spacer blocks available (they come in 3 thicknesses) would achieve something similar. The 1/2" version has worked well on my mk1 and didnt require longer spring fixing studs...

[Gary Flinn]

1 hour ago, Moonshiner said:

My car is a Mk II Vitesse (rotoflex) convertible which I bought around 4 months ago.

I Recently installed new rear trunnion bolts, new donuts and then converted to tele shocks as the old lever-arm shocks were clapped and for me, there really was no question about the way to go. The car now feels heaps better without any clattering from the back end and it only shakes it’s arse a wee bit from side to side over bumps.

I am given to understand that the the correct number of rear spring leafs for this car is 11 which I have and the spring fitted to my car is very new. Before dropping the car off the ramp, I sprayed between the spring leafs with a lubricant and when I checked after a short run, the amount of rear wheel +ve camber was excessive.

I then slung 2 x off bags of chicken feed & a small bag of gravel in the boot (I have owned Vitesse’s before) did another run of a few miles and then measured across the wheel rims (not the tyres) with a calibrated Clinometer which identified 2.6 Deg. +ve camber.

What I am aiming for is around 1.5 deg. -ve camber. I could mess around removing a spring leaf, or as was suggested, turn one of the leaves to reduce the curvature of the spring thus reducing the +ve camber but I would prefer to fit adjustable rear wishbones thereby arriving at a better engineered result.

Has anyone out there fitted adjustable rear wishbones to a Mk II Vitesse and if so, what type / make were they and how did you get on ??

 

Canley Classics do the Chassis Lower inner Wishbone Brackets with I believe 3 Holes/settings for camber adjustment, but you would have to remove your existing brackets to weld these in.

The Lowering blocks suggested by Johny are another option for altering the camber.

I would be careful altering the camber too much with a Roto-flex equipped car though.

The original rear spring does indeed have 11 leaves but is a different profile/set to the earlier Swing Axle Cars, are you sure you have the correct spring fitted?

Some of the new reproduction springs are incorrect spring ratings and actual construction in some cases

Gary     

Mk2 Adjustable Wishbone Bracket Info.pdf

Edited July 20, 2023 by Gary Flinn

[Gary Flinn]

Here's some information I've downloaded in the past from the Courier Magazine (Written by a guy called John Thomason I believe) on the various different rear springs fitted to the small chassis Triumphs.

The article suggest fitting an earlier Vitesse Mk1 Spring to a Mk2 Vitesse to get a decrease in camber and a firmer ride, I've no idea if the Author ever tried this but I once fitted an earlier spring to my Mk2 Vitesse and ended up ruining the Roto-flex couplings!

It was a reproduction spring I fitted though, which was probably the issue.

Gary 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Gary Flinn

[Moonshiner]

MK II Vitesse (rotoflex) rear wheel camber.

Thanks to all that have replied so far or that will reply; I have read a lot of articles on the subject of camber / springs etc and there are a lot of differing opinions out there. Although a retired Engineer, I don’t have experience of  the Vitesse in particular to know all of the issues with this mod.

Suffice to say, I really I don’t fancy the faff of fitting / removing / re-fitting (repeat as necessary) springs until I get (my) desired result.

I think I prefer to buy if available, or if not to fabricate, some adjustable rear wishbones and then at least I can adjust the camber angle to suit if anything changes.

One reason for me asking whether anyone out there has fitted adjustable wishbones is there are usually peripheral issues / pitfalls which can arise when making a mod such as this and which only become apparent when physically carrying out the task.

 

[johny]

You really dont want to try one of these from Canley Classics for 24 pounds? At least call and talk to them as they are pretty knowlegeable on this stuff....