Rocker oil starvation! eeeek!

[haggis]

Well I'm back from rebuilding my engine, and I still don't seem to have oil in the rocker, eeeek!. Now the engine has started and its run up to temperature, I have primed the rocker shaft with oil through the little screw access in the rear pedestal to make sure there is oil there and nothing comes out of the hole, no spurt, no dribble absolutely nothing! can anyone tell me what I should see? I assume that with the screw missing the pressure will drop on the engine as it's a common cause of pressure drop, does this mean the shaft isn't pressurised, so therefore no oil? should the rockers be dripping/spurting with oil when running?

 

As always your help would be appreciated, its a beautiful car, I just want to drive it now, think I might have to fit the rocker feed Kit!

 

Thanks

Hag

[Pete Lewis]

The supply is quite low volume after a short , minute or so there should be the signs of

oil show along the rocker shaft and around the edges of the rockers,

Youve taken the shaft screw out and its showing didly squat ,, after all that work to sus it out.

Ifnyou want to throw your spanners about do it with a smile

 

whilst theres an avid hate for the things a external feed is looking like a solution

 

so dont expect much oil it wont spalsh or squirt, after 5 minutes it should havedribbled and filled the rear recess and want to run down the back of the head.

 

sorry all the work has not worked

Pete

[haggis]

Thanks Pete, Just good to know what to look for, I have filled the shaft this time with oil from the screw so have oil everywhere at the moment, (I was trying to prevent changing the rockers & shaft for the third time! ) I'll let it dry out a bit and give it another go, I'll fit the screw this time and look for minor dribbling, if no luck a restricted feed kit is going on.

 

Thank for your help again.

 

Hag

[haggis]

Hello again, a little update from my previous post. I do, at last have oil getting to my rocker shaft, hurray! , but it still doesn't seem to reach the front 6 rockers., boo!.

So another post from me on this if anyone can help or let me know if i'm completely wrong it will be appreciated.

Now I have a MKI GT6 car fitted with MKIII engine ( KE series), I noticed when I was doing the sump that the steering rack didn't fit into the recess on the sump to accommodate it

Now this means the engine is about an inch higher than the original, causing some rubbing on the inside of the bonnet.

Pete said I should expect a dribble of oil at the rocker shaft, now knowing its reaching the first 6 rockers, is there a chance that the dribble is not making it far enough up the shaft, due to its angle?? 

And does anyone know if the sumps on MKI & MKIII's are interchangeable?

For your info 70psi Cold start up, 30psi warm tick over, result I think.

 

As always your help on my continuing saga is always appreciated.

 

Hag 

[Pete Lewis]

As this is a low flow but under some pressure feed I dont think angles would seriously affect the volume and pressure down the shaft.

 

the lazy flow you get seems adament its going to plague you for some time and I begin to think

(Wash mouth with soap) that a extenal feed with a restrictor in the banjo bolt is now a contender

to a solution

oil, psi spec has only 40 -60 psi at 2000rpm in the manuals.

I dont know about of rack clearance/sump/ height / angle changes between mk1 mk3

mk1 engines had differing gauze and pump access compared to mk2 but as for rack clearance

cant say

pete

 

certainly some on M 2000 sumps

[haggis]

Hi Pete, my warn out brain was probably clutching at straws! But its a real puzzle, I've continued down the line of not having an external feed but I have to agree that this seems the only way to ensure I get enough(or any) oil up there. Secretly I bought one last month, under a secret name 'Just in Case', lucky I did. 

 

Thanks for all your help again, fingers crossed this is it for this Post.

 

See you at some shows. 

 

Haggis

[Pete Lewis]

We are running Duxford next week 13th your welcome to a cuppa in our new gazebos

 

if you fit the kit you must restrict it, like tap the hole down the centre of the banjo bolt , fit a small bolt cuf of the head and then drill a 1mm hole max in the centre

 

or any way you find fit.

 

but it must be strangled or you have far too much oil up top and it then its oil down the valve stems and you have a smoker

 

pete

[haggis]

HI pete, thanks for the offer and it would have been nice to give her a bit of a run and have a cuppa but I've now got an issue with it cutting out when it gets warm. Oil feeder kit was a success but now she gets hot after about ten minutes and cuts out, more problems to solve! Just crafted a heat shield under the carbs as I think it may be fuel evaporation, but I guess thats a different post.

 

Have fun at the show.

 

Hag

[Pete Lewis]

Having been involved with misfires and stopping for years ive never found vapourisation a culprit

more an excuse for some other fundamental yet undiscovered occurance to basic needs

 

Not overly helpfull !!!!

do you have temperature compensators fitted on the side of the carbs ???

 

pete

[haggis]

Hi Pete and anyone, I have never come across temperature compensators, and have no idea what they might look like. I've fitted the heat shield because the tubuler SS manifold gets super hot under the carbs, read about it on another post so thought it might help and it seems to have. I'm just reading up on oil pressure, back to the old oil problem again. So I ran it gently on Sunday its definately not 40 - 60 psi at 2000RPM, more like 15/20, but it ran and it didn't cut out, which was nice for a change. But second trip went 3000RPM down dual carriage way, from memory it was around 50PSI but when I got home the pressure dropped off to pretty much nothing although it did continue to idle reasonably successfully.

Got a friend coming round on Wednesday, we are going to take it out and take various readings as we go, can never remember the data when I get back.

Again not sure where to go from here, I've checked pump, checked & replaced  relief valve, just looking at a few articles for insight into this problem. I think I may have more blockages in the system!

 

any ideas anyone?

 

Thanks

Hag

[Steve P]

What was the black blob you found?was it gasket sealer or oil residue/gunk?

from what you say it does sound like blockages somewhere,i wonder if whoever put it together used sealer everywhere and created more blobs where they shouldn`t be?

 

What oil are you using? the pressure in my rebuilt engine is 30psi hot idle and 60-70 psi at 2.5k revs hot,thats using Valvoline VR-1 20/w50.

 

Also i used to have a Pheonix 6-3-1 with heat shields to protect the carbs,i now managed to find an original MIke Randall manifold,thats mild steel and not wrapped,even  hot persistent idling doesnt cause fuel vapourisation.

 

If it was mine i would take the gallery plugs out and whizz the pump with a drill down below the dizzy drive to check the flow everywhere.either that or bite the bullet and take it out and strip it.

Good Luck

Steve

[Pete Lewis]

temp compensator  are on some mk3   is a small elongated housing on the front side of the carb , has a white plastic cover , these  held on with two screws and have  a bi metal strip inside , operates a plunger to by pass the throttle plates if the little sods open at normal temp you cant set the mixture 

just fit new o ring seals and screw the  small nut to close  the plunger  fully,  better always closed than open when they should be shut

if you dont have them send this to the old age section  ha !

 

 

 

if there was a blockage downstream from the pump it would increase pressure not reduce the psi in the gallery

 

to loose pressure you either dont produce enough volume from the pump or..... there is a casting flaw and the oil is escaping back to the sump or....... there is no bearing shells left ...you get low pressure when Big ends/mains  fail as the oil escapes easy

 

you only get pressure by restricting the flow  between pump and the oils escape route,  loss of pressure is you cant generate it or its escaping too easily

 

just another way to look at the problem ....begin to think there's a deep seat gremlin at work here

 

has it had a spin on filter fitted and over tighten centre bolt cracked the gallery inside ???

 

just thinking outside the box 

 

Pete

[haggis]

HI Steve & Pete thanks for the replies.

 

Firstly it looked liked a black blob of something like oil residue/gunk, but the engine was still in the car so I couldn't physically get to it to examine closer, I blasted it away with an airline and oil through the gallery and it disappeared onto the garage floor somewhere.

 

Definitely not got heat compensators fitted, they are the basic 150Cd, but in triple format.

 

Using Millers 20/50 new oil, changed filter but I will check to see we don't have a break in the casing. I do have an oil leak again from the front of the engine, somewhere around timing cover, front plate & front of sump which I'm assuming won't help.

 

Currently looking at this guide from a Healey site, which gives some clues to wear in engines based on oil pressure readings.

 

www.wihealeyclub.org/files/Download/Oil%20Pressure%20Diagnostics.pdf       Link inserted by Admin

 

Hoping it might help me evaluate the situation much better, really useful guide, have no idea how to post it as a link though, so you will need to copy & paste into browser if interested. 

 

Hopefully the run out tomorrow will shed some light.

 

Thanks

Hag

[haggis]

I'm starting to think Major gremlin and looking for a new bottom end to rebuild (or if someone has one out there? you never know) Do you know how interchangeable the parts are between the different 1998cc suffixed engines? I currently have a KE suffix engine, I have assumed that the ML, HC, KE & KC parts would all be compatible with each other. My engine has flat piston tops and step running around each cylinder.

 

Any help appreciated.

 

Thanks

Hag

[Pete Lewis]

thats a good article , he can type better than i can , but our idea's are similar,

 

the cracked gallery can happen if the long through bolt get overtightend and it cracks the inner casting the thread is tapped into, whether this would loose pressure by opening up a route from the gallery to the sump i have not looked at.  its just in the back of the mind.

 

recessed bore need a special gasket with a tab at the back face , the recess supports the fire rings,

if you have flat top pistons you dont want a head from a domed engine as compression ratio will be very wrong

 

i dont have when which piston/head configuration incompatibility took place

http://www.canleyclassics.com/technical-archive/engine-number-identification-chart       gives prefix but no detail

 

Pete

[haggis]

Hi all, thanks to admin for inserting as a link, it makes for good reading and with some diagnostics to play around with if your having a similar problem. 

 

Now I have another question about oil pressure and was wondering If anyone had any thoughts on this.

 

When I first purchased the car I was told it had some engine breathing problems, the mech fuel pump had been removed and pump block hole covered over, rocker pipe breather was not connected to anything.

 

Lots of oil leaks were present and I set about (after advice from someone)  installing an oil catchment tank, I had a bespoke cover made for the old fuel pump hole which I could fit an 1/2" pipe on and I ran this and the rocker to a catchment tank with a filter to the bulkhead.

 

Now I hadn't considered this in my post so far, but does the crankcase & rocker breathing play any part in oil pressure?

 

The filter seems to smoke quite a bit when the engine is warm, i was under the impression that a standard engine had a breather within the mech fuel pump for crank and a rocker breather which would normally run into the inlet manifold.

 

I may be barking up the wrong tree here!

 

As always your comments would be most appreciated. 

 

Thanks

Hag

[Pete Lewis]

No the breather has no effect on the pumped oil pressure

a mk3 engine should have a sealed crankcase with a smiths valve controlling any pressure build back which is then vacuumed into the inlet manifold, this should cope with most things you throw at it.

to take it off is not a solution just aid pollution

think we said earlier rythmical puffs from the filler cap or breather is a bad sign

 

think you need to pop the valves out to back up your leak test is telling the valves are seating

 

turn the engine to get all pistons halfway, add something thin (petrol if thats whats available)we dont really like that) to cover the crowns, if it all disappears from pot 4 you have the answer

 

pete

 

 

if its had smoke and breathing problems we are heading back to a ring or really bad valve guides

[haggis]

HI pete, I think you've managed to respond to two posts in one, as I'm assuming the rhythmic puffing and the valve test might be in response to James's post about loss of power, but I may be wrong.

And they say men can't multi-task. I'm still dealing with low oil pressure, but have shelved my problems until the weekend. I will look into the crankcase breathing again, thanks for your help.

 

Hag

[Pete Lewis]

Multi yes task no

 

I need a secretary but apparently specifying biological assets in an advert ..........is not allowed

 

back to fumbling about on this tablet nothing is where it ought to be, editing is hopeless, half the page is always missing and cant get tomthe laptop as the cats asleep on top

 

and finger prodding adds letters you cant remove without three asprin

 

and you want help about an engine !!!!!

 

Yes have a breakmand re visit , it often inspires new ideas

 

Pete

[haggis]

Hello everyone, I have decided to update my post with some information regarding my oil starvation problem. Firstly in the end I have removed and fully stripped my engine as nothing I did solved the problem. Its been in the machine shop and has been 'written off' by the shop! Well it all came down to the Cam, the cam journals were completely mashed up by the Kent cam and as the engine was modified I think the previous person just 'chucked' a cam in without checking the journal & cam tolerances first. Now in response to this I have bought a second hand engine to remanufacturer (you may have seen my other posts about engine compatibility and pistons?) all appears fine including the cam journals but they are on the edge of tolerances, the question is if I plan to introduce a different cam at some point, should I as a matter of course get the cam housing 'Line bored' to receive cam bearings? and if so does anyone know a decent stockist?

 

Thanks again,

Hag

[JohnD]

No,

but fit cam bearings instead

Available from Rimmers.  Fitting involves line boring, but you get the benefit of proper bearings as well.

 

JOhn

[Pete Lewis]

Does happy new year help

 

Pete

[haggis]

Thanks John, was looking for reassurance here and you gave it, much appreciated. And Pete happy new year always helps, and to you fine fellow, going to ring you soon.

 

Thanks hag

[Flatter4]

For line boring choose someone who has the right kit and knows what they are doing.  I used Ivor Searle in Cambridgeshire.  Highly recommended by me (but a long way from you!).

[Pete Lewis]

they do the engines for club shop sales , been there on a day tour , brilliant . clean, everything is done, logged checked measured logged and recorded in detail

 

a first class efficient organisation ,  you get what you pay for ,  Pete