Monte Carlo Rally Vitesse 6004 VC spotted

[Gary Flinn]

I've always been interested in the Rally Vitesse's, although they had a short period in competition, only entering the 1963 Monte Carlo Rally with a special heavily modified 2 Litre version (6003 VC) entering the Spa-Sofia-Liege rally of the same year I believe, but unfortunately it caught fire when well placed and was destroyed?

Of the Four Cars prepared for the 1963 Monte 6001 VC to 6004 VC I'm led to believe that 6002 VC survives and was restored a few years ago by Canley Classics.

6004 VC was also recently spotted on a trailer on the Vitesse International Facebook page and again is (So I'm led to believe) the original car and is being restored by KD Triumph near Coventry

The 6003 VC registration survives on a Replica owned by Dave at Canley classics.

What of 6001 VC though?

Can anyone shed any light on the above?

Gary

 

  

   

[thescrapman]

I was always told that's no cars survived, but all the registrations were recovered in the 1980s and attached to other vehicles.

6003VC ended up with John Woolley who used it on his rally car.

6002VC is now owned by Andy Martin, and is the only one I think could be genuine, or be based on an original car.

6004VC was uncovered after many decades of being missing and is now being rebuilt.

now to 6001VC, I suspect it will miraculously be rediscovered at some point.

It is currently on SORN and last logbook was issued in 2012.

All the cars have a close connection to the person who obtained the log books in the 80's.

[Gary Flinn]

I'm sure after all these years that even if a couple of them are genuine they will be a bit of a "Triggers Broom"

There are some doubts which have been raised on Social media regarding the accuracy of some of the facts quoted in publications by a well known Triumph Historian too

I believe Tony Lindsey-Dean made a recreation of 6001 VC (Photo Attached)

I'm sure there are people in the know, but facts about historic rally cars tend to get confused and mixed up in the sands of time.

I wonder if there is any truth in the rumor regarding the 1970 Mexico Rally wining Escort? now there is a can of worms!!

Can anyone else add anything regarding the Vitesse's?  

Regards

Gary

 

[thescrapman]

I think TLD did make a recreation, but I don't think he owns the registration any more, having managed to lose it somehow.

Lots of Chinese whispers.

[Works Spitfires]

Lots of Chinese whispers indeed!

I will be very interested to see how this thread progresses. 

Be careful of what you have read, or have been told by an expert.

[thescrapman]

I know, very suspicious of what I have read and have been told.

🙂

What does not help in the world of Factory Triumphs is that they screwed the same number plates onto different incarnations and that all the registration numbers still exist.

I do reckon I know someone who has the best overview of what is right and what is smoke and mirrors.

So what do you know about Mexico rally winning Ford Escorts?

[Paul H]

1 hour ago, Gary Flinn said:

I'm sure after all these years that even if a couple of them are genuine they will be a bit of a "Triggers Broom"

There are some doubts which have been raised on Social media regarding the accuracy of some of the facts quoted in publications by a well known Triumph Historian too

I believe Tony Lindsey-Dean made a recreation of 6001 VC (Photo Attached)

I'm sure there are people in the know, but facts about historic rally cars tend to get confused and mixed up in the sands of time.

I wonder if there is any truth in the rumor regarding the 1970 Mexico Rally wining Escort? now there is a can of worms!!

Can anyone else add anything regarding the Vitesse's?  

Regards

Gary

 

I recently bought some Vitesse doors from TLD maybe they were from 6001 😜

Paul 

[Works Spitfires]

2 minutes ago, thescrapman said:

I know, very suspicious of what I have read and have been told.

🙂

What does not help in the world of Factory Triumphs is that they screwed the same number plates onto different incarnations and that all the registration numbers still exist.

I do reckon I know someone who has the best overview of what is right and what is smoke and mirrors.

 

There was a raft of Triumph works cars registrations reappearing in the mid 80's.

I have traced most of these miraculous finds back to source.  

[Gary Flinn]

1 hour ago, Works Spitfires said:

There was a raft of Triumph works cars registrations reappearing in the mid 80's.

I have traced most of these miraculous finds back to source.  

Dave?

Yes, I can remember seeing a Spitfire ADU 7B (I think) at one of the TSSC meets in the late 80's at Moxhull Hall, when I attended in my Stag.

It would seem the DVLA/DVLC were much more lenient in issuing registration documents back then?

I have tried to trace twice with them previous owners of my current Classic only to have the DATA Protection act thrown back at me!😒   

Gary

 

[Gary Flinn]

2 hours ago, thescrapman said:

I know, very suspicious of what I have read and have been told.

🙂

What does not help in the world of Factory Triumphs is that they screwed the same number plates onto different incarnations and that all the registration numbers still exist.

I do reckon I know someone who has the best overview of what is right and what is smoke and mirrors.

So what do you know about Mexico rally winning Ford Escorts?

Hearsay only of course😉

Something about it wasn't the same car that finished the Rally that started it?

If that was the case, surely the 2.5PI was the winner!!😁😁😁

Gary

[thescrapman]

9 minutes ago, Gary Flinn said:

It would seem the DVLA/DVLC were much more lenient in issuing registration documents back then?

You don't need to go back that far for their leniency to still be present.

I know someone's who got a logbook off the back of a tax disc stuck to an old windscreen, and one off a number plate on a spare bootlid.

that was when it was still free mind, about 10 years ago.

I think I saw the tax disc back on the road recently. 🙂

[Gary Flinn]

I have e-mailed the TSSC to see if they can find out anymore on the Works Vitesse's off a couple of Honoury Members who may well know more?

Gary

 

[Works Spitfires]

3 hours ago, thescrapman said:

You don't need to go back that far for their leniency to still be present.

I know someone's who got a logbook off the back of a tax disc stuck to an old windscreen, and one off a number plate on a spare bootlid.

that was when it was still free mind, about 10 years ago.

I think I saw the tax disc back on the road recently. 🙂

When we imported ADU 4B back from the USA I applied to the DVLA for the V5 with the supporting paperwork. Imagine my surprise to find out when it came through that the registration had been applied for by a fairly well known character in the Spitfire racing scene back in the 90's, and had been tacked onto a Spitfire 1500 chassis number. This had occurred whilst 4B had been on display in a Swiss motor museum, but 'lost' to the UK experts, and historians at that time (pre Internet of course). 

Same sort of thing happened with a another well known car (not mine), but in different circumstances. This car had lain undisturbed since its factory days until its restoration in the 90's. When it came to MOT, and tax time it came as a big surprise to find out it wasn't registered to the owner anymore who then had to track down the 'tribute' car, and buy it to reunite the paperwork, with the actual car.

Another one of my favorites occurred many years ago when a good friend of mine (who has an inordinate amount of first hand experience of racing/rallying history) and myself went along to a auction to view, and potentially buy a significant ex competition car. We asked to see the provenance only to find some of it consisted of letters, and receipts from the two of us from some years previously for a different car.

I could go on (because similar stories surround a good proportion of the significant Triumph identities)  , but you get the drift.

What I would say is if you are ever in the lucky position of buying an ex factory competition Triumph take a good long look at its provenance. Any gaps in it's history at all, and its probably best to walk away, specially if it appears to have been re-registered in the period 1980 onward.

It would be wrong to say that there was any collusion on the part of any organisation that lent any weight to these spurious applications for long dead, or off the radar cars back in the day.

Back in the day they might not have had the value, or the interest they seem to have now so it might as have seemed relatively harmless, and as someone once said to me better for these plates to go to someone who is going to do a decent job of recreating these things, than some Tom, Dick or Harry.

This subject has always potentially been a festering can of worms, and not peculiar to the Triumph World.

Don't take everything you read at face value, don't listen to the keyboard experts, or Johnny come lately historians, do some proper research based on actual paper trails, and first hand experience.

 

 

 

 

[Colin Lindsay]

On 18/09/2020 at 08:31, Gary Flinn said:

I wonder if there is any truth in the rumor regarding the 1970 Mexico Rally wining Escort? now there is a can of worms!!

Regards

Gary

Locally, to me, there are a few guys who rally Ford Escorts; one of them had a lot of success back in the early 2000s then wrote his car off - I mean, bigstyle. It was mashed beyond recognition. Last year he appeared at an event driving 'the car in which he won the 2003 ***** Rally'... which as far as we know still lies in bits at the rear of his workshop. 

[thescrapman]

Mk1 (and Mk2) Escorts are a bit different, as you can buy a brand new body shell from ChIna, and that is an allowed replacement new part to retain registration.

Same with Minis, a new body shell is an acceptable part.

That is why so many Escorts just keep going on and on and on.......

[Colin Lindsay]

4 hours ago, thescrapman said:

Mk1 (and Mk2) Escorts are a bit different, as you can buy a brand new body shell from ChIna, and that is an allowed replacement new part to retain registration.

That is why so many Escorts just keep going on and on and on.......

Not the original shell, nor engine, nor suspension, nor wheels, nor interior, nor diff, nor brakes, nor gearbox... the windscreen might be original... or was it broken? ...but at least it's still the original car. That's a relief.

[Gary Flinn]

Thanks for all the comments.

I don't think I'm going to get conclusive evidence regarding the Works Vitesse's😕

Chris Gunby, can you comment regarding contacting the Honorary Members?  

 Gary

[Triumph948]

Hi Gary

who are you thinking about ?

[Gary Flinn]

Fred Nicklin or Dave Gleed?