1970 Triumph Spitfire MkIII Hard Top doesn't fit a MkIII car.

[Ali Jenkinson]

Hi All, first time poster - new member and new owner, apologies if I've not quite followed due process. 

I'm planning on restoring a MkIII hard top I've got my hands on. Before I do I thought I'd better check fit (roughly as it's not got all rubbers on etc) and things seem way off. 

All signs (as well as previous owner) point to this being a MkIII hard top so I can only assume it's the car - before I commit to a strip down and repaint (and buy all the rubbers and head lining bits) I thought I'd check with much wiser, more experiences souls than I if I'm about to make an error. 

I've attached some photos to illustrate the issue at hand. 

Please may anyone who's come across this problem or has some understanding of what I'm dealing with shed some light? 

Any help gratefully received. 

All best wishes, 

Ali. 

[DanMi]

that is sitting too far back. I am not familiar with early mk3 but the metal at the front should not be behind the softop clips as it is in pic 2, the whole thing needs to move forwards. Try to put a bolt through the mount hole in the frame and align with the captive nut in the hardtop header rail, that will show you where the front should sit

[Mark B]

As above the hard top is to far back. The screen surround may have been off the car at some point, and probably needs adjustment.

[KevinR]

I'd want to check that the rake of the windscreen surround is correct.

Any chance of a photo with the windows wound fully up ?

Also, note that the top of the windscreen has the early MKIII soft top fittings, and not the ones used on the later MKIII cars.

[Ali Jenkinson]

So many helpful pointers and comments above, thank you very much gentlemen. 

@KevinR I hadn't spotted that the top of the windscreen is an early MkIII fitting, will this cause issues later down the line? I'm happy to replace if sensible (it's not in great nick anyway). 

As suggested I've focused on aligning the bolts at the back (I've not got my hands on the correct spacers and fitting yet), the below images are the result, suggesting the windscreen rake is rather out. 

              

I've also tried the windows (didn't think of that, I've always got the wound down!) and there are issues there too. It's a bit tricky to see but there is a lot of overlap when the windows are fully wound up and the door won't close (1st and 2nd image below). This also points to the windscreen rake being off I think?

When I wind the windows up, as high as they'll go with the door closed, there's a significant shortfall (3rd image). I can adjust the window mechanism a bit but I'm guessing start with the windscreen alignment then do the windows if needs be? 

      

 

 

[mpbarrett]

looks like the screen is tilted too far back, that would move the hardtop back. I wonder if the front bulkhead has been off and not refitted correctly?
not sure what adjustment there is on the body mounting to move it, but that will effect the door fit etc, etc...

mike

[Mjit]

Looks like a classic case of "slouching windscreen frame" - could be just miss-aligned windscreen frame, could be 50 years of people pulling themselves out of the car by the windscreen frame, could be a bad sill replacement job that let the body sag a bit.

As the windscreen frame on a Mk3 is a 'bolt in' rather 'welded in' like the Mk IV/1500 hopefully it's just poorly assembled and you'll be able to finagle the frame mounting bolts to rotate the frame enough to let the side windows fit, and that will also likely resolve the hard top fit issue too.

Edited February 14 by Mjit

[KevinR]

As revealed by winding the windows up, the windscreen is tipped back too far.

On the MKIII Spitfire, the rake of the windscreen is adjustable - fittings inside the A posts.

Before tackling the hard top, you need to correct the rake of the screen.

This will involve loosening the fittings inside the A posts and the tipping the screen forward until you can wind the windows fully up and get a uniform gap between the glass and the windscreen frame.

Once this is done, the hard top should fit correctly.

Changing the capping from early to late should be fairly simple, but then the soft top will also need changing.

I've never done it, but there must be a way of fitting a hard top with the early soft top fittings - I'll let a MKIII owner chop in with the answer.

 

[johny]

Could adjusting the screen angle also affect how the soft top still fits?

[KevinR]

Adjusting the screen to get the rake correct will enable the windows to be closed properly, so if driving in the wet, or on a windy day the driver and passenger can get some side on weather protection.

It will also affect the tension of the soft top, and in the extreme, with a soft top that has shrunk a bit, will mean that it is too tight to fit - there may be a bit of movement at the back to help, but it may need a good sunny day to soften the material to get it to stretch to fit.

It's a big 3D jigsaw puzzle, and making one adjustment will throw out other things, but its a necessary evil in order to get it all sorted.

Start with getting the screen rake correct and then deal with the consequences as they arrive.

[johny]

Yes I did wonder if a PO has adjusted the screen to allow the soft top to fit😩

[DanMi]

3 hours ago, KevinR said:

Changing the capping from early to late should be fairly simple, but then the soft top will also need changing

It wouldn't be just the capping, the early frame would not have the holes with the catch in into which the later soft top catches fit

I also have a suspicion that the hardtop header rail bolt holes were at a different spacing on late cars to early so you need to check that the spacing of the mount holes in the frame matches the captive nut spacing on the hardtop of course if not you could use rivnuts on the hardtop

[Mjit]

21 hours ago, KevinR said:

As revealed by winding the windows up, the windscreen is tipped back too far.

On the MKIII Spitfire, the rake of the windscreen is adjustable - fittings inside the A posts.

Before tackling the hard top, you need to correct the rake of the screen.

I'd go the other way actually, bolting the hard top down at the back, loosening the windscreen frame, and moving the frame to just/snugly fit the hard top.  Do that and chances are when you wind the windows up they will be in the correct place.

[KevinR]

1 hour ago, Mjit said:

I'd go the other way actually, bolting the hard top down at the back, loosening the windscreen frame, and moving the frame to just/snugly fit the hard top.  Do that and chances are when you wind the windows up they will be in the correct place.

The problem with that approach is that it wont identify if the complete body tub has sagged due to incorrect sill replacement at some time in the car's past

[Ali Jenkinson]

Hi Folks, 

I've done some investigating and as suspected, there's more than meets the eye at play here (I'm learning this joy as a new owner of an older car, it's an adventure!). 

I'm really pleased (and grateful for all the help) I checked here first as I think project hard top can take a back seat to project windscreen frame / bulkhead rebuild - after all, it's a spring/summer car really.... right? 😂. At least I know I've got a great condition MkIII hard top, which I'll stash to one side for a later date. 

Having loosened all the bolts inside and outside the car the windscreen won't shift more than a few mm - suspect the below is why. Someone has had a great time with the filler and... other foreign substances. There are also some suspicious welds on the A pillar (image 4) that suggest the body sag people have mentioned.

       

The other side doesn't look much better - 

  

[KevinR]

Don't you just love previous owners !

[DanMi]

there is 2 on ebay at the mo. They do have the TR tax though!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/404795454038?itmmeta=01HPPTSJ8FDMMJ2P07CGYPCBCS&hash=item5e3fb07256:g:mHcAAOSwk0tlV53b&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0Gb9LHOOxo%2FLwvAy1YdL01AeHeX2Y%2Fs%2Fp6t8KlNKqU2x8udeWSIiwdmySwRJBWXFT5Jv4A5JNCz7ac20prCdDZR%2FO6n5ollvlzhl4LrAxzulYnU2%2F3rc41A4OPunxeEqaBpZAodOewfdwimFdJnlQBrpoqbHOJzWtRlTDnWZEVrMJ9CuK%2FZ0bFbRyYPGHB81vz72Wtjdy8nsF2vsn1eD5oDifeS2A7J9MfNzYRnGAW6BviGDIZbi%2FqpjYoFyUiaLvdn6olAtjh9sLf2mCEKVJAc%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR6qk5tq1Yw

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/256276578620?itmmeta=01HPPTSJ8FKNJBY3B5CSQGWK5W&hash=item3bab46413c:g:XgUAAOSwiKFlQQRt&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0I1IFH%2FlovHnYZwde53DItuHpcGdcyYW%2BWOiI1grFXRohhy%2BpYJ3ugmU5BQrDmGj3HXBVQvSF9CxD%2FjRZUIMBiAt6mD%2F82%2BBMEEIwd%2Bg0MnMyvm4FZ%2BT0Kp0g8nXvEOhAy8UqQfh8m8IfLERcNiJvR7TfsSFSi4HVfJYcBIbJld%2FoAvk2V%2BrRifm%2FZHrYAK6X3Fet2wd83TtCLtG0fnSQ73Fc0tBESX5Vt87Oc7T08CuBAyNAcfuuKTFMF%2FtP0dlYy8%2B7TqyJauiRBfCcV6mFb8%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR6qk5tq1Yw