Slow high torque starter

[Peter Truman]

Ahebron the same starters and set up as mine works great

[Iain T]

Slithered under the car and there is no way the starter will come out without taking the S piece of the exhaust off and then pivoting the mating rear pipe. Even then its very unlikely it will squeeze out from below as the tail of the manifold will get in the way. As its impossible to leave the car where it is on ramps I gave up and put the car back in my parking bay. However I think I may be able to get it out from above if I take the carbs off which is a simple job. The only other obstacle is the steering column but again something I was going to do as the turn cancel isn't at 3 o'clock. 

Time for tea and biscuits. 

 

[Peter Truman]

Oh what a devious web we've made for ourselves! I do sympathize with you, esp your working conditions.

Iain just to rub salt into the wound my Mk2 has the standard cast iron exhaust manifold with single exhaust down pipe & it's easy to remove & install the starter though I have thought about replacing the top mounting bolt with a stud so I can hang the starter on it, only one pair of hands needed then.

I have a TR6 dual outlet cast iron exhaust manifold given to me, Seeing your issues I think I'll leave it on the shelf, or eBay it!

[Iain T]

10 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

have a TR6 dual outlet cast iron exhaust manifold given to me, Seeing your issues I think I'll leave it on the shelf, or eBay it!

It may just be the peculiarities of my manifold which is one piece from the engine to the 6-3 collector then three pipes make it in my opinion impossible to remove the starter even if I remove the next 3-1 pipe. 

I've never thought about a name for my car but I think Cleopatra would fit. Good looking goes like the clappers but devious, cunning, obstinate and dangerous! 

Iain 

[Steve P]

I`m confused, i have never removed the starter from either my Herald or Vitesse from underneath, always from the top without removing carbs or exhaust., once the valance is out of the way it`s easy no?.Or maybe the routing of my manifold is different to a Pheonix, it used to have one but the fit was awful so I e- bayed it.

Mine has HS6 Carbs and a 6-3-1 manifold.

S

[Iain T]

13 minutes ago, Steve P said:

I`m confused, i have never removed the starter from either my Herald or Vitesse from underneath

Nether have I! Today I removed the carbs, heat shield and valance and it came out ok. 

[Wagger]

I would have thought that it should be possible via the gearbox cover inside the car.  Maybe remove the engine mounts and juggle it all. Needs a few blocks and planks.

Are you really sure that is essential to remove it? I would remove plugs, spin it over and see if anythng can be 'Run in'. The car starts, so why bother until is does not.

Maybe record the noises for us to hear.

[Wagger]

Just now, Wagger said:

I would have thought that it should be possible via the gearbox cover inside the car.  Maybe remove the engine mounts and juggle it all. Needs a few blocks and planks.

Are you really sure that is essential to remove it? I would remove plugs, spin it over and see if anythng can be 'Run in'. The car starts, so why bother until is does not.

Maybe record the noises for us to hear.

Too late, you have done it now. Good luck.

[Iain T]

Stripped down the starter and the bearings are fine although time stopped me from taking a look at the gear end. The only thing I can see is the wiring coating is fried. Not surprising as its 1" from an exhaust pipe. Also the brushes are not evenly worn. The commutator(?) doesn't have any ridge where the brushes contact. There aren't any overthrow marks on the starter ring. I want be able to further investigate until Saturday as the wife has 'plans' for me.....

Iain 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Iain T

[Iain T]

10 minutes ago, Wagger said:

Are you really sure that is essential to remove it? I would remove plugs, spin it over and see if anythng can be 'Run in'. The car starts, so why bother until is does not.

I've put up with the screech for 5 years and fed up with it. I will probably replace with a club powerlite starter. 

Iain 

[Wagger]

Well done Iain. Percy Veerance must be a close relative of yours. I can only guess that the most worn brushes were closer to the heat from the exhaust. Or, the +ve side loses atoms as the -ve only loses electrons. Does happen with dynamos too. A mixed batch of brushes at assembly time is more likely.

[Iain T]

12 hours ago, Wagger said:

Well done Iain. Percy Veerance must be a close relative of yours

He is, however it was more a case of engaging my limited brainpower! 

I was certain it came out from below as 40+ years ago that's how I remember doing it but not on a car with a chassis. A lot of peeing about for nothing as it only took an hour to get it out. I took the carbs off because the heat shields were in the way. My only issue now will be getting the starter bottom nut and bolt in and secured. I've ordered a high torque from the club shop. 

Iain 

[Josef]

An electric socket driver will probably help out with getting the bottom fastening on, assuming the awkwardness of moving a ratchet/spanner in the confined space is the issue similar to the four cylinder cars.

[Wagger]

I know that it is a bit of a pain, but removing the gearbox cover inside the car makes all of this easier and sheds more light on the subject.

Maybe you have done that anyway. A gungy greasy job if you have sealed it. That's why I do not use sealant. Just have to put up with noise and hot air. Will soundproof it next time.

[Steve P]

Yes cover out makes it easy, i don`t use sealant either, just foam strips, 10 mins and it`s out, a little longer to put it all back but no biggy.

The club shop one i have has a stud on the top to make it easier to mount on your own. I experimented with a fibreglass cover but the fit was not great and i thought it was too flimsy, so i repaired an original with Fibre glass mat and Dynalined it and it`s fine and quiet.

Steve

Edited May 11, 2023 by Steve P

[Iain T]

I only have a heat shield on my glass fibre gb cover. I think I should also have some sound deadening. I only tape down my cover as it seems to be in and out more times than a........... 

The big question I have to answer is whether to use the new starter or my original solenoid. I quite like Ian Foster's arrangement. One thing I will be making is a heat shield jubilee clipped to the nearest exhaust pipe. 

Iain 

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Iain T

[Steve P]

I must take a photo of mine, it`s in a lockup. I did away with the bulkhead solenoid and ran a new heavy duty cable from the starter to the battery terminal, the thin trigger wire does show signs of high heat as the outer seems hard and brittle, but easy to replace.

S

[Iain T]

37 minutes ago, Steve P said:

the thin trigger wire does show signs of high hea

Is that because the new starter solenoid requires more amps? 

Iain 

[Josef]

11 minutes ago, Iain T said:

Is that because the new starter solenoid requires more amps? 

Iain 

Most likely cause it’s having to run down into the heat of the engine bay / exhaust. 

[Steve P]

Yes not current, proximity to the manifold.

S

[Iain T]

Googled and you can get heat resistant cable. May be worth it as its toasty around there. 

Iain 

[Peter Truman]

The explanation to me on this forum by others to retain the original solenoid in series was more about the extra current through the starter switch and its failure rather than a wire issue.

I originally wired the battery (in boot with battery cable along the outside of the main chassis rail) to the starter with the ignition wire bypassing the old solenoid direct to the new starter solenoid, but after the then forum precautionary advice I reverted to wiring thro the old solenoid, to modify the battery feed was a PITA as I had to join a new length of battery wire up to the old solenoid then back down to the new starter. Do I regret it, not really it seemed a safer way and logical advice/discussion, I think using the old solenoid or bypassing is a case of whatever you feel comfortable with!

Heat resistant wire appears a good solution, over the years I've replaced quite a bit of under bonnet wiring due to cracking insulation and wire that is fatigued and subject to breaking, even a 4 year old Jag XJ6 in the mid 80's injector wiring, virtually no air circulation around a Jag engine!

[Iain T]

12 hours ago, Peter Truman said:

virtually no air circulation around a Jag engine!

I remember a friend telling me when he first took out his mgb v8 and it rained after a spirited run. He hadn't insulated the bonnet and there was so much steam he couldn't see anything in traffic! 

On that tack has anyone used the pipe insulator kits dei and others sell. I don't mean the wraps these kits are fixed with jubilee clips. They come in various lengths and 1 foot should be fine to protect the starter. 

Iain 

[Wagger]

On 11/05/2023 at 17:08, Iain T said:

I only have a heat shield on my glass fibre gb cover. I think I should also have some sound deadening. I only tape down my cover as it seems to be in and out more times than a........... 

The big question I have to answer is whether to use the new starter or my original solenoid. I quite like Ian Foster's arrangement. One thing I will be making is a heat shield jubilee clipped to the nearest exhaust pipe. 

Iain 

 

Hopefully, you'll be amused by this. I once had a rare BMW2500 Saloon. PO had refitted the factory made floor matting that was foam backed to achieve 'Sound Deadening'. It held so much water that it 'Soundly Deadened' the floor pans. It became a Flintstones car.

[Iain T]

25 minutes ago, Wagger said:

I once had a rare BMW2500 Saloon.

I very nearly bought a BMW2000CS instead of the Vitesse. Lovely cars and particularly like the rakish angle of the front grille.