Slow high torque starter

[Wagger]

14 minutes ago, Iain T said:

I very nearly bought a BMW2000CS instead of the Vitesse. Lovely cars and particularly like the rakish angle of the front grille. 

The CS's were alll built by Karman I believe, as was the Six series of 1979 on. I believe that the 2000CS had the 2002 engine in Twin Carb format. Maybe Kugelfischer injection. Quite a flyer for a 2 litre. I had a 2002tii. Must not digress any further. Only to add that the Vitesse definitely influenced BMW into making the 320i Cabrio. 2 litre six cylinder ragtop. Almost as pretty as a Vitesse.

[Iain T]

3 minutes ago, Wagger said:

Must not digress any further

Yes, anyone tried the  dei or cool it pipe heat shield? 

Iain 

[PeteH]

11 hours ago, Iain T said:

Yes, anyone tried the  dei or cool it pipe heat shield? 

Iain 

Is that the same as what would loosly be called heat resistant Lagging?. Sort of "asbestos" looking stuff that you wrap over the pipe to reduce heat transfer to adjacent parts?.

The reason I ask?, is that I am sure I saw/read about the manifold/pipes, especially Stainless developing cracks, which the theorists where accusing of being due to not conducting the heat away fast enough?.

Pete

[johny]

No, Pete, I think its cast iron that shouldnt be wrapped for that reason. Its got quite a lower temperature working temp than stainless...

[Iain T]

2 hours ago, PeteH said:

Is that the same as what would loosly be called heat resistant Lagging?. Sort of "asbestos" looking stuff that you wrap over the pipe to reduce heat transfer to adjacent parts?.

Sort of, they are strips of 'material' 4 to 6" wide by 1-3' long that reduce heat transfer to adjacent components. They are attached using jubblies that are fixed to the material. It looks like the material isn't tightly wrapped around the pipe but slightly held off which would stop any excessive heat in the pipe. 

The other options are home made heat shield using Nimbus ali sandwich sheet (we used to make loads of prototype heat shields for Federal Mogul from this material) and or a starter wrap that again dei and cool it sell. The issue with the starter wrap is it doesn't protect the rear of the starter and that's the bit that is close to the pipe. 

Iain 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Iain T

[ahebron]

On 13/05/2023 at 05:50, Wagger said:

Hopefully, you'll be amused by this. I once had a rare BMW2500 Saloon. PO had refitted the factory made floor matting that was foam backed to achieve 'Sound Deadening'. It held so much water that it 'Soundly Deadened' the floor pans. It became a Flintstones car.

Thats the reason I removed the underfelt from the carpets in my Vitesse saloon.
I have used marine sound deadening through out the car

[PeteH]

6 hours ago, johny said:

No, Pete, I think its cast iron that shouldnt be wrapped for that reason. Its got quite a lower temperature working temp than stainless...

Yes I can see that, although we did come across some grades of stainless, that would embrittle at elevated tempertures, but that was in Boiler Furnaces. Where they really should not have been anyway in all truth, but someone "thought it was a good idea". Until we had to condemn multiple pieces. At great expense to the operator.

Pete

[Iain T]

Cleopatra living up to her mischievous ways. 

This afternoon I fitted the powerlite starter RAC101 from the club. First off I had to drive out the top bolt from the starter flange as it didn't give enough wriggle room with my exhaust system then drill to give clearance for a bolt. I had to enlist the wife (she was in a good mood) to help with the nut and bolt. I kept the starter jumper lead in place as I'm retaining the bulkhead solenoid. Then fixed the power cable from solenoid to starter. 

So with a check to make sure everything was clear (although the carbs are still not fitted) I crossed fingers and turned the ignition. 

Not good news. It clicked and sounded as though it had hit something. I couldnt hear any whirring and it certainly didn't crank the engine. I checked the clearance from starter ring and it's around 5mm. This means it should engage about 10-11mm which is the same as the old Wosp. Checked battery and it shows 12.65v so in good condition. 

Any suggestions? I'll take it out tomorrow and try and bench test to ensure the starter works. 

Iain 

[Steve P]

Did you fit the spacer?, i tried it without and it made an awful noise dragging on the flywheel not disengaging.

Steve

[Iain T]

6 minutes ago, Steve P said:

Did you fit the spacer?

Yes spacer fitted. 

I also dropped my phone and cracked the screen........ 

[Iain T]

I wonder if the click I'm hearing is the bulkhead solenoid but there isn't any power getting to the starter? Can I disconnect the battery and starter cables from the solenoid, keep the red/white in situ and turn ignition to check if there is continuity at both terminals? 

Iain 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Iain T

[trigolf]

Bad news about cracked phone screen. Bit late now for you, but a screen protector has saved mine more than once!

Anyway.... I would just disconnect the lead from the solenoid to the starter and check for 12v at the solenoid starter contact. However, even if a multimeter reads ok, it draws very little current when compared to the starter, so the starter lead may still have a poor or high resistance connection, i.e. loose crimp connector possibly?

 

[Ian Foster]

14 hours ago, Iain T said:

I wonder if the click I'm hearing is the bulkhead solenoid but there isn't any power getting to the starter?

Hi Iain

This is exactly the issue I was having and I suspect the internal contacts within the solenoid are corroded or eroded.

If you rewire as per my posts of 7 and 8 May you will be by-passing the solenoid.

Ian

[Iain T]

Did some horizontal thinking in the early hours and I think the lead or connection from the solenoid to starter is the culprit. The mechanical clonk sounds like the starter cog being projected forward but there's no power getting to the main motor. I'll clean the solenoid  connection and check the lead. If that fails I'll wire in a la Ian Foster. 

I only want to make sure it works as the heat wrap and nimbus don't arrive until early next week. I want to get it fixed so I can drive to the Enfield Pageant. 

More later! 

Iain 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Iain T

[Iain T]

Found the problem😁 it was badly corroded terminals at the solenoid. Starter now doesn't sound like the gears are trying to escape. I'll strip the old wosp unit gears and take a peak. 

With my limited electrical knowledge I can see why it may be better to keep the bulkhead solenoid as the power required to activate the solenoid to push the cog out will be much greater than at the original bulkhead. This could burn out the brown(?) ignition wire. 

I'll have to wait until the heat shield and wrap are delivered before I go for a trial run. Weather permitting Enfield here I come! 

Iain 

[Iain T]

Stripped starter gear assembly. The bearings are OK. The only problem I can see is what seems like excessive play in the smaller gear bearing cage. There is also some wear in the alloy bearing case for the larger gear. A lot of fine metal in the gear grease so something has been rattling around. 

[Ian Foster]

Unusual looking bearing!

[Iain T]

45 minutes ago, Ian Foster said:

Unusual looking bearing

Yes it is, tapping on the spiders web that is now my screen. New one being fitted tomorrow. 

The standard steel cage bearings all felt fine, this oddity is a hard plastic cage with removable steel rods. I have seen this type before but it didn't fare well in that environment. Slop on the casing pin where its just alloy against plastic. This gear must have been rattling around against the larger meshed gear. The new one is much quieter. I hope it last more than the Wosps about 8000 miles! 

Iain

 PS although I haven't started the engine (the carbs are still off) I think I may have found the cause of the ting ting ting engine noise that varied with revolutions. I welded angles on the three push fit exhaust pipes in an effort to seal them. One of the clamp bolts was just touching the sump. I reduced the length and it now has 6mm clearance. I have my fingers crossed as this again could be an own goal. 

[Iain T]

One for the electrical wizards out there. 

Ideally I would like to wire in as Ian Foster has but the worry beads are in action about the extra load on the red/white wire. So I'm thinking I could fix a 20amp? relay activated by the red/white wire and a livewire straight from the battery fed live fused terminal block I have. Then a wire to the starter and use the existing earth wire. 

This wouldn't potentially overload the ignition? 

Iain 

[trigolf]

Iain, I'm thinking of measuring the current drawn for each solenoid, for comparison purposes. I've got a feeling that they are going to be fairly similar figs.

[Iain T]

1 hour ago, trigolf said:

Iain, I'm thinking of measuring the current drawn for each solenoid, for comparison purposes. I've got a feeling that they are going to be fairly similar figs.

The result will hopefully lay to rest that fear about bypassing the bulkhead solenoid! 

Iain 

[trigolf]

Ok, the results are in:

1. Current drawn by Lucas solenoid is 4.3A

2. Current drawn by Powerlite solenoid is 6.3A

Being respectful of an elderly ignition switch, I'm going to leave the Lucas solenoid in series.🤔

[Iain T]

Erring on the side of caution so am I. As I previously posted a way to use the starter solenoid and be kind to the ignition switch would be to install a relay. 

Iain 

[Ian Foster]

4 hours ago, trigolf said:

Ok, the results are in:

Interesting research Gav. 

I actually have a relatively new ignition switch so hopefully not a problem. I certainly matched the wire gauge when I brought the starter solenoid wire up to join onto the original feed from ignition to bulkhead solenoid, actually harvesting a nice length of red/white wire from my old wiring loom.

Iain, if your starter is the issue, then no reason why you shouldn't retain the original bulkhead solenoid anyway.

Gav, I think you said that you suspected that your bulkhead solenoid wasn't disconnecting cleanly.

It would be interesting open up an original bulkhead solenoid (drilling out of rivets required IRRC) and see exactly what degrades after 50+ years. Might be an easy fix.

Ian

[Wagger]

3 hours ago, Iain T said:

Erring on the side of caution so am I. As I previously posted a way to use the starter solenoid and be kind to the ignition switch would be to install a relay. 

Iain 

Iain.

I was an Electrical and Electronics Engineer.

You really do not want two solenoid switches in series with the starter windings. The 'On' resistance may be as much as 0.01 Ohms for each and a starter current of 100 amps or more will drop 100 x 0.02 = 2 Volts. That will guarantee a slow starter.

If the starter is a pre engage type, the ignition switch should be capable of supplying 6 amps. By all means use a relay to pull the solenoid in, but do not put the old one in series.