Slow high torque starter

[Iain T]

An on going problem since I bought the car is the seemingly slow revolutions and screeching sound from my wosp high torque starter motor fitted by the PO. I changed the battery 2-3 years ago and that didn't have an effect so it must be summit else. I'm also fed up with cringing every time I crank the starter. I took the 'new' battery off a month ago and put it on charge and drew very few amps. 

So for the while saying the battery is OK it can only be the starter, solenoid or earth? The starter still uses the remote solenoid. The nasty noise does make me think the wosp has lost it's sting! 

Before I grovel under the car to see if I can get the thing out without peeing about with the 631 manifold any thoughts of any other causes? 

No it's not tinnitus! 

Iain 

 

[Pete Lewis]

i fitted mine when i had the 1600 with the orig solenoid  not a wasp unit and the pheonix 631 was nor a problem  

would need the tunnel off or long fingers 

i did make a heat shield to fir on the end of the motor as its a tad close with  no6 primery

maybe you need some shims like is it over engaging ????

 

Pete

[Iain T]

It's fitted with the standard flange but whether it's the correct unit is unknown. Obviously the cog is correct but the noise makes me think it might be water ingress which has been posted on the forum. As to over engaging that could be a reason but would that cause a slow rotation? 

I'll have to take it out and try and strip it down. 

 

[Iain T]

What about the solenoid can that cause my symtoms ie noise, low energy movement, headache, stress..... 

It looks like it's old like me! 

Iain 

[Peter Truman]

1 hour ago, Pete Lewis said:

i fitted mine when i had the 1600 with the orig solenoid 

Pete

I was advised on the forum not to directly the High Torque Starter solenoid direct to the Ignition switch as the extra load and current drawn by the High Torque starter solenoid would eventually cause the ignition switch to fail! So I retained the original starter solenoid be it in the most awkward place on a Vitesse,

I also had to have the alloy starter spacer ring reduced to approx 1/2 depth to ensure correct clearance and meshing of the starter ring. Unfortunately it was a gearbox cover out job, I think one of the later saloons used a stud to mount the starter making removal and refitting easier, but of course they didn't have extractors limiting space.

[Iain T]

1 hour ago, Peter Truman said:

was advised on the forum not to directly the High Torque Starter solenoid direct to the Ignition switch as the extra load and current drawn by the High Torque starter solenoid would eventually cause the ignition switch to fail!

I'm not an electrician but surely the feed from the ignition switch just activates the same type of solenoid as the one (awkwardly) fixed to the bulkhead so why should it draw more power. Those with electrical knowledge please supply written answer in simple language. 

My starter is a nut n bolt job but as I've only duck taped the gb cover down easy to remove. 

1 hour ago, Peter Truman said:

also had to have the alloy starter spacer ring reduced to approx 1/2 depth to ensure correct clearance and meshing of the starter ring.

This sets my worry beads jangling.

I'll leave grovelling under the car until after the Coronation. We put our Union Jack flags and bunting up on our balconies today. The only ones in our 280 apartment complex and walking around the Isle of Dogs today very few flags. Just shows how very few Brits live in my area. It's as though it's a disgrace to fly the Union Jack or English flag. I find this very odd. In say Denmark they have a flag day. Sorry for the rant. 

Iain 

[trigolf]

Hmm, I need to check out my Club supplied high torque starter too. It's only done 100 miles so far ( very recently fitted), but makes a bit of a rattling ( hard to describe) noise once the engine has fired. I refitted the original motor spacer and shim, as recommended on here, but I suspect it might be clearance issues with the pinion?

[Iain T]

I don't have a shim! I had to fettle the flange to fit correctly as it wouldn't push home and had a small dissimilar gap at the bolt mating faces. 

Iain 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Iain T

[trigolf]

Rimmers sell them  if you're feeling flush!

[Iain T]

I can see me having to shake the piggy bank again but first I want if possible to find what the problem is. 

Does your club starter have a ring so you can orientate it to get the best angle? 

Iain 

[trigolf]

1 hour ago, Iain T said:

Does your club starter have a ring so you can orientate it to get the best angle? 

Erm, can't remember at mo. I need to pull it out and have a look and see what's going on. I'm halfway through a diff change at the moment!

[Iain T]

18 minutes ago, trigolf said:

I'm halfway through a diff change at the moment!

Good luck! 

[Steve P]

The first HT starter i had on my 2.5 Vitesse with 10:1 compression ratio used to spin quite slowly and struggle to start before the battery started failing. Nothing wrong with the battery. I replaced the starter (Club shop i think) and now it wizzes over much faster.

It was the inner gears slowly seizing due to water getting in the vent hole which faces upwards on my car. It will only fit one way due to the solenoid postion.

S

[Iain T]

19 hours ago, Steve P said:

The first HT starter i had on my 2.5 Vitesse with 10:1

Thanks for the info. My cr is also 10:1 or even 10.5:1. It sounds as though I have the same symtoms. I'll post more after I've found the energy to get underneath the car and extracted the offending object. 

Iain 

[Ian Foster]

Iain

It might be worth checking the return earth path. Standard (on a GT6 at least) is engine to body and body to battery. If any of those connections are dirty or corroded, there will be a voltage drop which could be causing your slow cranking.

This was identified as problem with my GT6 back in the 70s when I was struggling to get a decent crank with the old Lucas starter. If you make a direct connection from the engine to the battery you will know quickly whether this might be the issue.

Another possible cause is corrosion within the solenoid, if you are still using it to pass the main current. I have a Powerlight starter on mine which works really well with 9.9:1 compression ratio, but had this issue and now just use the solenoid as a joining post for the starter main cable. The starter is actually switched internally by the solenoid that puts the pinion into mesh and I transferred the activation wire for the starter's solenoid from the starter body to the original solenoid post which is made live by the ignition/starter switch. (hope I've explained that ok)

Ian 

[Wagger]

Use a heavy jump lead to bypass the solenoid, connected to battery +ve and jab the starter terminal. Connect another lead from engine to battery -ve if you doubt the earth connection. If it still cranks slowly, you need to investigate further for friction caused by over engagement or damage caused by water ingress.

If it cranks more quickly, then it is resistance in the solenoid and/or connections,

[Iain T]

2 hours ago, Ian Foster said:

hope I've explained that ok)

I think so!? If I read correctly you have a cable from the battery +ve to solenoid then a cable from the same solenoid terminal to the starter? To activate you have a cable from the starter to solenoid? 

Iain 

[Iain T]

44 minutes ago, Wagger said:

Use a heavy jump lead to bypass the solenoid, connected to battery +ve and jab the starter terminal. Connect another lead from engine to battery -ve if you doubt the earth connection. If it still cranks slowly, you need to investigate further for friction caused by over engagement or damage caused by water ingress.

If it cranks more quickly, then it is resistance in the solenoid and/or connections,

Very useful tips. I'm feeling the need to tinker! 

Iain 

[Ian Foster]

Hi Iain

Yes the cable from the battery and the cable to the starter are joined on the top post of the original solenoid. (ie the starter feed cable is moved from the bottom post to the top post). The red/white starter wire goes from the ignition (edited) to the starter. This effectively makes the original solenoid redundant. The original red/white wire to the solenoid needs to be disconnected and extended and I managed to harvest some original matching wire from my old wiring loom. 

When you start the car on the ignition switch, the red/white wire goes live and this energizes the starter's internal solenoid, throws the pinion into mesh with the flywheel and switches the main current to the starter motor. Retaining the original solenoid just made the wiring easier and with a new solenoid (which I have waiting in the spares drawer) would be readily reversible.

Photo of solenoid attached (bit difficult to get a clear shot).

Hope this helps

Ian

Edited May 8, 2023 by Ian Foster
update

[Iain T]

46 minutes ago, Ian Foster said:

Photo of solenoid attached (bit difficult to get a clear shot).

Thanks again Ian got it! 

I'm going to start checking the wiring and earth this afternoon. For peace of mind I will also take out the starter and see if I can see any signs of overthrow etc. 

Iain 

[Iain T]

Changed the main battery to solenoid cable, added extra earth from engine to - ve. No difference but then I really wasn't expecting it to. I tried them because they are easy! 

Took a peak underneath and I'm pretty sure I'll have to take a part of the exhaust off to get the critter out. Even then it'll be a bu**er. I'm sure I installed the starter before I put the engine in a couple of years ago. 

I'll get the car up on my front ramps tomorrow and take a closer look. Oh joy! 

Iain 

[Steve P]

What exhaust do you have Iain?. Mine has an MTP (Mike the Pipe) 6-3-1 and i don`t have to take it off to get the starter out?.

S

[Iain T]

14 minutes ago, Steve P said:

What exhaust do you have Iain?. Mine has an MTP (Mike the Pipe) 6-3-1 and i don`t have to take it off to get the starter out?.

It's a 631 Phoenix. This afternoon I needed to get the car higher to take a better look. I only have a small trolley jack but my ramps are higher. By coincidence there is a used Halford Advance jack for sale on the Isle of Dogs where I live which would come in handy so I can use the higher axle stands. 

Iain 

[ahebron]

I dont mean to mock your issue but when I first turned the Isuzu starter on my Vitesse 6 I thought I had lost compression on all cylinders it spun that fast.
I did renew all battery cables and ran a new (35mm?) neutral to the block.
Also still using the original starter relay in conjunction with the Isuzu one.

 

[Iain T]

10 hours ago, ahebron said:

thought I had lost compression on all cylinders it spun that fast.

That's the plan but I bet it currently turns slower than an original starter. 

Iain