wanjo Posted August 12, 2023 Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 Hi all, new member, hope this is in the right place, triumph spitfire mk4, 1974, think it may have a 13/60 engine in it, as engine number begins GExxxxx, anyway my question is, my oil pump drive spindle is seized in as can't turn it with screwdriver, already snapped two distributor drive gear before I realised, I thought it should turn freely, tried with plugs out with a drill and fitment no luck, does this I have to remove pump,wj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 12, 2023 Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 Wanjo, What's all that blue stuff around the bush? Is that what has seized the pump?? Yes, take out the pump. Then you can work on it on the bench. Take the end plate off and tap the rotors out by striking the top of the shaft. But if it's seized now, I'll bet it'll need a replacement. And you have to take the old one out anyway to do that! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 12, 2023 Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 you have to remove the drive gear as its in mesh with the camshaft it wont turn till the gear is removed completely why do you need to turn the pump shaft ????? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanjo Posted August 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 39 minutes ago, JohnD said: Wanjo, What's all that blue stuff around the bush? Is that what has seized the pump?? Yes, take out the pump. Then you can work on it on the bench. Take the end plate off and tap the rotors out by striking the top of the shaft. But if it's seized now, I'll bet it'll need a replacement. And you have to take the old one out anyway to do that! John Hi, the blue liquid is actually oil, which I put on to lubricate, should this turn freely, wj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanjo Posted August 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 24 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said: you have to remove the drive gear as its in mesh with the camshaft it wont turn till the gear is removed completely why do you need to turn the pump shaft ????? Pete It won't turn I'm thinking this should freely, broke two of these trying g to start it, po started restoration work reconditioned engine but never put any oil in it, 25yrs later I purchased it as a project, engine turns freely and wants to start but don't want to break anymore distributor gear drives wj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted August 12, 2023 Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 1 hour ago, wanjo said: It won't turn I'm thinking this should freely As Pete says, it's connected to the camshaft so won't turn freely. With that toothed drive removed, try to spin the pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanjo Posted August 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 30 minutes ago, Colin Lindsay said: As Pete says, it's connected to the camshaft so won't turn freely. With that toothed drive removed, try to spin the pump. How do I spin the pump, turn engine over but get no movement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Clark Posted August 12, 2023 Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 With the distributor drive great removed, the oil pump can be spun with an electric drill, using a simple improved tool. I took a 12mm steel rod and cut a slot in one end to engage with the oil pump shaft. Put the other end of the rod in the drill chuck and you should be able to spin the pump and prove oil circulation. Can't remember which way the drill needs to turn, thick it's anti-clockwise. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 12, 2023 Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 4 hours ago, wanjo said: No drive gear in that pic, so not linked to the camshaft. If that drive Shaft won't turn, the pump is seized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanjo Posted August 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 46 minutes ago, Nigel Clark said: With the distributor drive great removed, the oil pump can be spun with an electric drill, using a simple improved tool. I took a 12mm steel rod and cut a slot in one end to engage with the oil pump shaft. Put the other end of the rod in the drill chuck and you should be able to spin the pump and prove oil circulation. Can't remember which way the drill needs to turn, thick it's anti-clockwise. Nigel Yh, tried that nick, with cordless, don't think there was enough power to turn it, will try tomorrow with electric drill, cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 12, 2023 Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 1 hour ago, wanjo said: How do I spin the pump, turn engine over but get no movement If you can spin the engine with a seized pump, then you have left out the drive gear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanjo Posted August 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 2 minutes ago, JohnD said: No drive gear in that pic, so not linked to the camshaft. If that drive Shaft won't turn, the pump is seized. My thoughts exactly need to start spit, moving house in fortnight,wj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 12, 2023 Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 Sounds like a tow or trailer needed. Now's the time to talk to you local area Group for help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanjo Posted August 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 19 minutes ago, JohnD said: Sounds like a tow or trailer needed. Now's the time to talk to you local area Group for help! Area groups a very good idea, but as regards tow truck I'm OK my mate as one, problem I have is atm I have a humber super snipe in the paint shop should be finished this week about Wednesday, mate picks it up swops it for spitfire, paint shop man is also a friend who will prepare spit and paint in his own time so that means he'll be moving it about alot, so would have liked to get it running for him,wj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Clark Posted August 12, 2023 Report Share Posted August 12, 2023 A healthy oil pump will spin easily with a battery drill. If that didn't work, there's something seriously wrong with the pump, so replace it. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanjo Posted August 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 Hi all, had sump off this morning and sorted it out, burn marks on shaft, well stuck had to tap out gently with hammer, seemed to be some thick black paste under the cover, all cleaned sand paper shaft wd40, all freed up, now spins freely, thks for all replies, wj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted August 13, 2023 Report Share Posted August 13, 2023 This thread is a bit confusing (and it could be useful for a parallel one running at the moment)! Surely the photo of the dizzy mounting shows the drive gear (item show from manual) engaged with the cam. At its base it also drives the oil pump but the assembly will never turn because its locked by the cam gear. The drive gear has to be removed to be able to get access to turn the tang of the oil pump spindle which in this case was seized. Maybe thats not so unusual as I see the six cylinder engine uses a roll pin to connect the drive gear to the oil pump with of course the idea this sheared first so not ruining the drive gear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanjo Posted August 14, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2023 Hi all, just setting endfloat for distributor drive gear, put washer under drive gear, determine gap between distributor base and block, which in my case was the same fit required gasket, question is does the washer stay in or removed, followed instruction on Google but don't mention anything remove or leave in, wj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 14, 2023 Report Share Posted August 14, 2023 you dont want any spurious parts left in its only a means of determining the stand off may I suggest you invest in a proper workshop manual Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanjo Posted August 14, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2023 36 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said: you dont want any spurious parts left in its only a means of determining the stand off may I suggest you invest in a proper workshop manual Pete Hi Pete, I have a workshop manual, but it's all packed away, but which box, must have twenty boxes, should have move before but they pulled out on us,on the day dropped us right in it, live n learn, wj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 14, 2023 Report Share Posted August 14, 2023 (edited) 22 hours ago, johny said: This thread is a bit confusing (and it could be useful for a parallel one running at the moment)! Surely the photo of the dizzy mounting shows the drive gear (item show from manual) engaged with the cam. At its base it also drives the oil pump but the assembly will never turn because its locked by the cam gear. The drive gear has to be removed to be able to get access to turn the tang of the oil pump spindle which in this case was seized. Maybe thats not so unusual as I see the six cylinder engine uses a roll pin to connect the drive gear to the oil pump with of course the idea this sheared first so not ruining the drive gear... I refer the Honourable Member to my previous answer! On 12/08/2023 at 21:07, JohnD said: No drive gear in that pic, so not linked to the camshaft. If that drive Shaft won't turn, the pump is seized. Wanjo, You said, "burn marks on shaft ... thick black paste under the cover" !!!!!!!!!!! Sounds dire! Especially if that stuff is else where in the engine. I'd take it out, inspect all the bearings and flush out the oil ways, else you can expect more failures soon. By "under the cover", did you mean behind the end plate, on the rotors? Have you checked the clearances there, as specced in the manual? And "burn marks on the shaft"? OMG! If it's been that hot it will have lost temper and been weakened, could fail in use. My advice is, new pump! Canley's can order you one. Sorry to be gloomy, but you have a potentially savable motor there. A rebuild now could prevent a replaced engine later! John Edited August 14, 2023 by JohnD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanjo Posted August 14, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2023 23 minutes ago, JohnD said: I refer the Honourable Member to my previous answer! Wanjo, You said, "burn marks on shaft ... thick black paste under the cover" !!!!!!!!!!! Sounds dire! Especially if that stuff is else where in the engine. I'd take it out, inspect all the bearings and flush out the oil ways, else you can expect more failures soon. By "under the cover", did you mean behind the end plate, on the rotors? Have you checked the clearances there, as specced in the manual? And "burn marks on the shaft"? OMG! If it's been that hot it will have lost temper and been weakened, could fail in use. My advice is, new pump! Canley's can order you one. Sorry to be gloomy, but you have a potentially savable motor there. A rebuild now could prevent a replaced engine later! John Hi, pumps all freed up now, cleaned gunk off, wire wool shaft come up nice, should have took photo,wj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 14, 2023 Report Share Posted August 14, 2023 You didn't answer my Qs, wanjo! The black paste may have been washed off, the pump may be "all freed off", the shaft may have had the discolouration scoured off, but what about the rest of the engine? The clearances on the rotors? The strength of the shaft? John 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanjo Posted August 14, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2023 1 hour ago, JohnD said: You didn't answer my Qs, wanjo! The black paste may have been washed off, the pump may be "all freed off", the shaft may have had the discolouration scoured off, but what about the rest of the engine? The clearances on the rotors? The strength of the shaft? John If your about clearance on the outer edge of the rotor casing, I have 0,02", on the shaft were just stains, as regards of the rest of engine haven't had time to check anything, has I said in my first post previous owner reconditioned engine, but hadn't put any oil in, that was 25yrs ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 14, 2023 Report Share Posted August 14, 2023 we found on the 1600 there was a big lump of casting snot and this seriously fouls the pump shaft and neatly machined a tapered reduction in the shaft diameter to 50% probably been like it for 40 years , took 2 hours with a die grinder to remove the obstruction had a pic on the lost forum but dont have a pic now an amazing cock up that had lasted years how triumph or a previous owner got the pump to fit was a miracle Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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