EFI Herald

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Darren

                     Its like I said when one door opens at least one shuts in your face!

 

Had a funny old day today first we had a new car delivered(Skoda Yeti) so that was exciting

 

Then I thought back to the serious stuff Spitty's ignition! so I started to follow the instructions in the link you posted all was going quite well until the timing light decided it did not want to work anymore(no amount of shaking or tapping or re soldering all the joints would get it working!!!!!

 

I had checked the Triumph marks with a DTI down the No 4 plug hole and it is within 1/2 deg(so good enough)

 

I did manage to get one run at checking the error when running on fixed advance and it was showing 8 degs when it was set at 10 degs in software but you can not run a toothed wheel with an offset other than zero(then the light packed up)

 

So now I am thinking can I just adjust all the maps or may look at moving the sensor? but 2 degs is not a lot?

 

Then while I was working in the garage I heard the bin men arrive then there was this crashing noise! first thought was have they hit the new Truck but no just knocked the end of the guttering off and snapped a fence post then hit the bin as they swung around!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

So I rushed out and I do not think he knew he had hit the garage and post? when challenged he said well I have been coming here for about a year and this is the first damage caused!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(it Beggers belief)

 

Roger

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Darren

                    I have decided to leave the sensor were it is and adjusted the ignition map by +2 degs(I can not see why this will not work?)

 

I have spent sometime calibrating the water and air temperature sensors(small electric kettle balanced on the engine and jug of iced water and a mug for the 120 deg)

 

It seems pretty close now? I ran the engine up and mearured with an infra red thermometer.

 

So now I am going to remove the carb'e etc(The scarry bit!) but at least I know the ignition works and sensors.

 

So it will only be half into the unknown(well that's the theory?)

 

Roger

 

ps carbs etc off had to machine clearance for the lower stud in the manifolds but now both are hitting the exhaust No 1 and No 4 pipe so I will try a bit of gentle reshaping of the exhaust(I do not think a smallish dent will effect the gas follow much?)

 

Standard exhaust would be ok but 4 branch 1 and 4 pipes stick out a bit more!!!!!!

[Darren Groves]

Keep up the good work Roger, looks like you'll get there before me so I'll let you do all the head scratching for me and I can just pick up your fixes   

 

The last Area Meeting is 1st December down here in North Devon, so that will be the last run of the year then I start taking things apart for the swap over. I'm back in the workshop tomorrow so will remove the retaining bar on the manifold that's in the wrong place and relocate further forward. I can then give it the final clean and paint.

 

I was going to get the fuel rail drilled for the injectors by a local engineers, but have decided I'll do it myself on a pillar drill instead. I'll need the ends of the rail machined so they're perfectly flat and tapped so they are square. I've decided on these AN-6 type fuel fittings on the fuel,  http://r.ebay.com/n2Lfj3 & http://r.ebay.com/rMMUwZ & http://r.ebay.com/WDiZYX. Actually not that keen on the anodised fittings, but seems the simplest way of doing it.

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

             A lot more questions for you all as you are familiar with EFI(me still on the STEEP learning curve)

 

I have got the car running on the ignition side of the Microsquirt and calibrated the water and air temperature sensors.

 

So I have started to fit the injection side and the problems have started! 

 

The first problem is the Weber type inlet manifolds will not fit the No1 & No4 hit the No1 & No4 exhaust pipe on my 4 -2 - 1 I thought I could get away with a smallish dent? but no, I have cut into it but now realise it will cut the flow by 25% on my exhaust the No1&4 pipes pass outside the No2&3 pipes.

 

The problem is the angle of the inlets which is about 15degs on the No2 & 3 and 25degs on the No1 & 4 the oher way around and they would clear (just)

 

I have looked at other exhaust for sale on various sites and they all seem to be the other way around ie 1& 4 inside and 2 & 3 outside which I think would fit? something like this? 

 

http://www.maniflow....a955f23475c.jpg

 

What has everyone else got fitted?

 

The next problem is the vacuum side of things?

 

I need one for the MAP sensor and one for the fuel pressure regulator! so can they share the same line? and will one tapping on the manifold do of is it better to have all 4 manifold tapped?

 

Then there is the idle air? now on the Jenvey site they list adaptors to fit were the air bleed are(which my throttle bodies have although they are not Jenvey's) and they use this setup.

 

http://www.jenvey.co...-4-ports-avk2t2

 

So any advice would be appreciated 

 

Hello Nick

                That link is very interesting and made me have another look at the problem and after some more bashing I have decided its a non starter as the No4 runner hits the exhaust behind the flange of the throttle body end(the No4 exhaust is more proud than No1

 

So it is which exhaust manifold to get?

 

I thought 4 tappings for vacuum would be best.

 

The throttle bodies do have adjustable stop screws but they operate 2 throttle plates(common shaft)so you could only balance in pairs but slight adjustments can be made with the bleed screws.

 

In the photo below which position do you think would be best for the vacuum take off's(cylinder head end or throttle body end)

 

I thought some of these(I could not make them for that price?)

 

http://www.ebay.co.u...=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

I would need 6mm version if I was to use the bleed screw tapping for air bypass

 

 

 

 

[Darren Groves]

Roger,

 

My exhaust is the same, it's a Bell system from the Club Shop, so not going to help. What about taking your existing manifold to a Custom Exhaust place, wouldn't take much to modify what you have?

 

Darren

[Moe]

Roger,

I had the same issue with the weber manifolds wouldn't fit over Bell manifold, I changed over to a Moss/TriumphTune one that has 2&3 coming over 1&4. The Moss one is no where near as well made as the Bell one, Moss one is a three piece and the first one I received wouldn't mate up to the head at all, the second one mated (just) but I had to cut one of the pipes to length going into the Y piece. But it works, and got a boss welded into it for lambda sensor.

 

If you see the pic of my install earlier in this thread I have used a piece of 15mm copper pipe to make a vacuum manifold to connect the 4 inlets up to as well as the map sensor, fuel pressure reg, servo, IAC and the PCV valve.

 

Moe.

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Moe

                Thanks for the information.

 

I will weld a patch on the exhaust and see if anyone would like to buy it cheap?

 

I have been looking all the ones on offer and the James Paddock is the cheapest.

 

http://www.jamespaddock.co.uk/parts.aspx?categoryID=10&vehicleId=2

 

Plus If I have to modify it may as well start with the cheapest? it looks the same as the Moss one

 

http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/manifold-exhaust-tt1400.html

 

I see you have the TPS sensor next to the bulkhead? when I tried fitting the throttle bodies it is very close to the bulkhead and the plug fouls the bulkhead! so may have to buy one that will fit on the front body but needs to be opposite rotation.

 

Roger 

 

 

 

 

[Moe]

If your TPS signal is going the wrong way just swap the GND and +V  round on the TPS and it will then go the right way.

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Moe

                When I say opposite rotation when fitted to that end of the throttle bodies it goes anticlockwise but needs to go clockwise on the other end(it only goes anticlockwise)

 

I have bit the bullet and ordered a set pipes from James Paddock about £75 cheaper than else where?.

 

I wonder which way these rotate? but they do not appear to be the D drive type or do they just work on a tight fit? cheap enough to carry a spare!

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/390971305580?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

I could fit the TPS sensor between the two bodies but that would mean having some sort of operating shaft either over or under the bodies(it would give more scope for adjustment and problems!)

 

Roger

 

ps I wonder if the same as these?

 

http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=190

 

pps yes but not the same as mine B****r  

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/311644448363?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Mine is 32mm crs  x 8mm D drive and central back to trawling tinter web there must be a parts list somewhere with dimensions etc?

[Darren Groves]

That's the inlet manifold finished! (I hope)

 

The bar for the fuel rail support bracket was moved further down the runners to clear the manifold studs, will just mean I'll need to create an angled bracket rather than straight threaded rod from rail to bar as original planned.

 

Cleaned up my messy welds and painted with some high temp paint, I have to say I'm quite pleased with how it turned out.

 

Apart from a few connectors and clips etc.that was that was the last major part, so no excuses now I just need to get on with it.

 

 

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Darren

                    That manifold looks good(any leaky welds?) and its nice to see a bench as untidy as mine!(can't stand these photo's of workshop like operating theaters)

 

My new exhaust manifold arrived today(ordered midday yesterday arrived 10am today on the free shipping code!)

 

It looks ok just needed a bit of filing to get to fit over the studs(the old one had to be sprung as well)

 

Then a bit more filing to clear inlet manifolds(front one is very tight on the No1 pipe)may machine the inlet manifold to slope up by a degree or two to give more clearance?

 

It may need a bit of a ding were the 2 pipes cross as they touch(may cause vibration noise?) and a couple more lower down as they are tight against the sump and rear engine casting(or a heave in the right direction)

 

Still not bad for £174 delivered it is double S make and about £75 to £150 less than the rest on offer.

 

What is the general opinion on wrapping/lagging with the pipe wrap? and which one (not having that fancy coating done would cost about twice the price of the pipes)

 

Still working on what to do about the TPS sensor.

 

Still have not taken the fuel tank out yet(there is just so much to do) still spring is a long way off!

 

Roger

[Darren Groves]

Hi Roger,

 

Leaky welds? I hope not, though it's possible I guess, just not easy to pressure test given the number of holes I'd need to blank off to do so. Need to put some thought to that.

 

Don't do tidy.....

 

If your TPS connector is only just touching the bulkhead, could you not try and move the engine forward a tad?

 

Glad the new exhaust is a better fit, nothing is ever straightforward on this kind of job, is it?

 

I've read pros and cons for exhaust wrapping, some say it encourages the pipes to crack. Isn't that only going to reduce the clearance to the inlet manifold though?

 

Cheers

Darren

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

             Some progress again I think?

 

I have finally got the new exhaust manifold to fit after machining the No1 & No4 flat(No4 at a bit of an angle may have pulled down?) and putting a few dents in to miss the sump.

 

I machined the inlet manifolds so they slope up at about a 2.5 deg angle to give more clearance on the No1 inlet.(and a small dent)

 

I also made a strap to clamp the 2 manifolds true to each other while bolting to the Cylinder Head(using 4 of the throttle body studs)

 

I still am unsure were to drill for the vacuum pipes(Head end or Throttle body end as shown by red dots?) on both of course.

 

I was also thinking would it be worth fitting a heat shield under the throttle bodies? I am not sure if EFI is as much affected as Carb's(no float chambers)

 

I think I have solved the TPS sensor problem of being to near the baulk head by cutting off the 2 ears on the the connector and fitting the retaining clip from the other side (I may try undoing the engine mountings to see if I can fit a spacer to give a bit more clearance by moving it forward)

 

I have to weld a boss onto the new exhaust pipe for the Lambda sensor before I can fit all the system back on.

 

I am looking at how to arrange the throttle linkage plus where to fit the fuel pressure regulator.

 

Will the original fuel feed pipe be big enough to use as the return line to the tank?

 

I still have not removed the fuel tank to see about fitting a pump inside it.

 

Roger

[Darren Groves]

Hi Roger,

 

Well done, making progress.

 

I shouldn't worry about the heatshield, I don't think fuel injection suffers in the same way. I'm using 8mm fuel line for both feed & return, currently it has 6mm. I'm struggling for a good position for the fuel pressure regulator too, but I would think you have more possibilities, maybe near the washer bottle? I may mount mine on the heater box...

 

I managed a sly hour on the conversion today, just really to remove the carbs and inlet manifold and make sure the new inlet manifold fits (which it does thankfully). I have also removed the exhaust manifold to weld on the bung for the 02 sensor, so looks as if we are both around the same stage.

 

Keep up the good work and posting the updates so we can see how you're getting on.

 

Darren

[GT6M]

Wots the type of TPS yer using, Wabash !!!, looks like one.

 

If so, then thee,s,  after a while, esp wid heat, the plastic compresses

this then alters the TPS setting a wee bit, butt also TPS alters due t,heat effecting the innards.

 

if the thing get v v hot, as it will wid ex pipes near, and nee ventillation as such

 

Also,the TPS, although yer ECU will just register  full digits on the TPS window

the thing actually es a high and a low, this also alters things, yours got a learning TPS sett,n !!

 

IE, TPS of 20   it can be 20.0 to 20.9 butt only register a 20

this may no sound much, BUTT, the  VE window, will show a diff of maybe  5 wid engine off

or maybe 8 wid engine running

the pic up,is at engine off, movin the TPS 1 click, will move that VE sett,n 5 points

thats 5 wot ever extra fuel

 

Butt, yer not, the heat is  mainly dooing it

T,put it another way, if yer TPS is say set to  low 20, { ye wont no, by screen,  BUTT, can be found out by the TPS  +/- buttons  that alter TPS,  as 2 clicks may leave it at 20 going up, butt, 1 click may be needed going doon }    to give a TPS reading of 1 at idle  then VE will alter

butt, yer TPS read out on the  live screen, may well read  0  if gone down, or read 2, if its gone up.

follow,!!!

if gone down, an its reading 0, then it fooks all other set,ns up, that are set to a TPS of 1

same too if it goes to 2 at idle, then it stops other sett,n working too

 

like idle control,fuel cut off,  Lamba on /off,  or what ever ye got  matched to it

 

Look at VE / TPS   read oot on screen,  thees alter wid heat,or movement of plastic as it gets hot /cold, and also the track inside it

 

Ohhh,if ye run Lambda  at idle OK

run it every where else, ye,ll use alott moer fuel, esp at cruise.

 

M

[Mjit]

Heat shield shouldn't be necessary - remember you'll be pumping fuel through the fuel rail at 30-50PSI, not the 3-5PSI for carbs so it won't be around the manifolds very long to pick up any heat.

[Moe]

I used the original fuel line as my return and have not had any problems with it.

 

No need for a heat shield, although if you can direct cold air towards the intakes it would help.

 

My fuel pressure regulator is mounted onto the bracket for my brake servo on the bulkhead, it is the shiny bit to the left of the rocker cover on the pic I posted earlier in the thread.

 

Are there no vacuum connections on your throttle bodies?  My Weber throttle bodies have a vacuum port just before where it connects to the inlet manifolds. You can see them connected up to the black vacuum manifold pipe.

 

Moe.

[Darren Groves]

Another job off the to do list. Bung for the 02 sensor welded in, so the exhaust can go back together.

 

 

 

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

             The TPS I am using is this one

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MG-ROVER-THROTTLE-POSITION-SENSOR-TPS-MHB101440-SLD100080-SPECIAL-OFFER-PRICE-/311644448363?fits=Car+Make%3AMG&hash=item488f74e66b:g:C2gAAOSwPcVVybV0

 

If I use the original feed line for the return it puts fuel into the bottom of the tank is this ok? 

 

My throttle bodies have bleed screws to balance them(which takes air from the front of the butterfly and delivers it to the engine side)

 

I may still fit a heat shield to stop heat to the TPS?

 

Roger

[Moe]

Never had any problems with heat around the TPS. It only for flood clearing and for logging in my setup. On a road car you want to use the MAP sensor for load rather than throttle position, using TPS for your load is really for track use or if you can't generate any vacuum for MAP sensor to read. A TPS designed for car use in the engine bay should be designed to automotive spec and handle the temperatures anyway.

 

Sounds like you are drilling and tapping the manifolds then for vacuum takeoff. Or Is there somewhere on the bodies to connect the IAC to?

 

Can't think of a reason you can't return to the bottom of the tank. My return goes back to the swirl pot and then the overflow from the swirl pot goes back to the blanked of pipe on the top of the tank.

 

Moe

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

             I have removed the fuel tank and their is no drain plug fitted so I will have to modify the tank in some way.

 

I am thinking of getting one of these

 

http://www.ebay.co.u...J4AAOSw6BtVTNUz

 

I have asked the seller for sizes and he said  lenght about 23/24cm under fixing plate and plate is 9cm diameter.(which is about the depth of the tank)

 

I can make a mounting flange to welded into the tank(maybe on a tube to sit just above)

 

I like the idea of top mounting less risk of leakage and I think I could put the filter at the side of the tank behind the tank cover(only 6 screws to remove when needed) which should not be often as the tank is clean and rust free and there is a strainer on the inlet

 

What do you think?

 

Roger

[Darren Groves]

Roger,

 

Take a look at this article: http://triumphspitfire.rickbaines.com/the-efi-fuel-pump-high-low-pressure-system/

 

Darren

[GT6M]

there ne need at all for swirl pots or lifter pumps on a Spitty.

 

Butt, yours is a Herald, then the first pic,  { basicly same as my set up, but slightly different }

the tank becomes the swirl pot if its modded slightly

 

2 diff ways, first type is me own set up,

 

 

M

[GT6M]

Moe, RGs cars on TBs  TPS is better on TBs

butt, can use map  as an aid,

its just not as quick a responce on MAP as wot TPS is

 

Me own, could have MAP or  TPS, went for TPS,

and its  better in my mind, and driving  than me marras 6 on map

 

and this no just frae me, but Ladd woes RR i use

and he been at it for years, built,tuned installed 1000,s engines too

 

If yer not familiar wid TPS, then, as I said, folk dont really no about the  top an bottom of a setting

and even the Infra red type I now ev on, suffers the same prob;ems as the linear type which has a track

to move aboot on

 

 

 

M

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

             Thank's for all the advice given it has given me much to think about!

 

I have decided to go with the Range Rover pump for several reasons

 

1) It will be easier for me to fabricate a mounting flange and less likely to leak being on the top.

 

2) Looking at the pump it appears that the inlet is on the bottom so if I arrange the mounting flange correctly the inlet will be on the tank floor so if I keep at least 1/4 tank of fuel I don't think there will be fuel surge problems(well that's the theory!)

 

3) If I use the original feed as a return it will put the returned fuel under fuel level so I assume less airation? and better for cooling the fuel as it mixes with the tank full?

 

4) If I am wrong I will have to get a new tank and go down the swirl pot route(still its all fun?)

 

Problem is now do I buy a nos at £70 or a replica at £28?(they come with a 12 month warranty?)I could buy 2 replicas but that's just silly

 

I welcome comments on my folly!

 

Roger

 

Ps spent the day correcting some gardening work we had done by a SO CALLED LANDSCAPE GARDENER(I know its not correct but gypo's would have done a better job?) it is the first time in my my life I have felt conned and embarest about it! now I know why I do all my own work(even if it nearly kills me!)