** 26/02/23 Heading Up ** Probably how not to restore a Herald!

[Pete Lewis]

and an old trick with any tin plate covers /sumps  /side plates  etc  is support the sump and with a ball pein hammer give the hole a strke to reverse any bolt up distortion   around the bolt holes ,

you can use an old push rod in place of the ballpein  and strike either with another mallet to dress the flange holes 

 

[NonMember]

1 hour ago, johny said:

the chances of large items entering the sump and being sucked into the oil pump

That had happened to my GT6 before I bought it - the timing chain had lost most of the hardened rings on the link pins, and the shards fell into the sump. Some of them had clearly got into the pump and embedded themselves in the workings, despite it being the later type with a gauze over the end. So I'm not convinced the gauze makes all that much difference.

[Bordfunker]

Johny, I must admit I was thinking along similar lines myself, and given that the engine appears to have survived the last 70k miles in this config, I’m not sure a lack of gauze is a great concern.

It’ll never do more than 3k miles per year, whenever it is up and running, and will have its oil changed at least annually, so probably not a big deal.

Pete, the sump flange is lovely and straight, which further reinforces my suspicion that the current sump/pump config, is as it left the factory in 68, and hasn’t been messed with.

NM, I used to have VW Beetle with a gauze oil filter, no separate disposable filter, and the gauze on that was a lot finer than what Triumph used, and that didn’t work that well either!

So, I think I will leave as is, and simply reassemble everything in the same manner that I found it.

Now do I need to use a gasket sealant, or is it just pressure that provides the seal?

Thanks 

Karl

[johny]

I do recommend checking the pump while youve got access Karl. Its easily done and pumps be worn especially on axial clearance which fortunately can be rectified by removing a fraction off the length of the pump body...

[Bordfunker]

Johny, given that the oil pump is just sitting there, it seems churlish not take it out and check the tolerances.

I’ll clear the bench tomorrow and take a look at it.

Karl

[johny]

Have you got a manual? If not the Triumph workshop manual is available to download for free from the excellent Vitessesteve.co.uk site. I personally would inspect the crank bearings as well but I understand theres always risks when dismantling things and you may feel its not worth disturbing them. Either way cleanliness is essential👍 

[Bordfunker]

I’ve got a WSM and a set of feeler gauges so will check the oil pump for conformance.

As for the bearings, I’d rather leave as is, but will rotate them by hand to see if there are any rough spots, but if the oil pump shows any signs of scoring then they will have to be looked at.

Thanks

Karl

[johny]

You wont feel any roughness in the crank bearings (it would have failed by now if there were) but you could feel for axial play although its highly unlikely....

Plenty of people on here to give further advice if needed👍

[Pete Lewis]

i would add some gasket sealer on the refit 

and check you dont get long bolts in the alloy bridge so the bottom and strip, and its only a light 6lb ft torque if you dont trust a hand nip

it has to be worth popping a couple of bearing caps to examine the shell condition while you are that close to them 

Pete

[Bordfunker]

So, following the wisdom of the hive mind, I spent this afternoon removing and stripping down the oil pump, which left me with the following:

This is the top of the pump, note circular scratching, particularly visible at the top of the photo.

The impeller itself wasn't scratched, but was covered in little pits, see below.

Not sure if these are rust, if so unclear how, as when removed the pump was still full of oil.

The section that the impeller sits, stator?, also exhibits the same pitting:

The interior of the pump body looked OK, but is now sitting marinading in Gunk to remove the external muck.

I haven't checked any tolerances yet, as I can't find my feeler gauges, but is the oil pump toast as is?

Again, given the guidance provided by the forum, I cracked the main bearing caps, which unearthed the following:

This is the rear bearing, note copper/brass showing through in the top right.

The centre bearing was even worse!

Showing considerable wear, while the front bearing....

....exhibited none at all.

I'm guessing that the centre bearing is under the greatest load, followed by the rear due to the flywheel, while there is relatively little acting on the front by contrast.

I did rotate the crankshaft, and run a nail over each of the journals, but all are scratch free, with no discernible wear.

Given all that, I am assuming that I am in the market to get the crank journals checked by a machine shop, and a fresh set of bearings ordered?

Karl

[Pete Lewis]

some of that is down to poor oil quality in the past 

i would think a new set of shells will be fine 

you not racing or running at +6k all the time  are you 

the pump is not terminal ive seen far worse but its easy to fit a replacement if thats how you decide to go 

the scrtachy marks are down to the oil quality form years back  its probably quite able to produce a reasonable pressure 

you not aftera blue print spec engine   just a decent runner fit for a good few years 

avoid  utopia 

Pete

[johny]

Well! The hive mind was right for once😄 It looks like youve caught those bearings just in time as much more and you wear through the copper under layer to the steel backing and risk damaging the crank. I think the big ends may have been changed in the past as they normally go before the mains but anyway will need inspecting as well (dont mix up if being reused).

Obviously the journals could be oval but its unlikely so, as Pete says, I would just replace the shells. Looking at the pump I wonder if the engine has been left a long time without being run as it looks almost rusty. However if within tolerance it shouldnt be any problem especially as less pressure will now be lost through the crank bearings...

[johny]

Just thought, if youre feeling rich the new oil pumps available are alloy bodied and look to be higher capacity (confirm this) than the originals like yours plus of course come with a gauze strainer....

[Bordfunker]

Johny, Pete, thanks for the guidance on this.

I finally got around to checking the tolerances on the oil pump, and they are all comfortably within the tolerances stated in the WSM, and are pretty much on the upper, tighter end of the scale, so it looks to be all good.

That's the good news!

I also managed to crack the end caps off the big ends, and this revealed a similar story to what we saw with the mains before.

That's quite a lot of copper showing on cylinders 2 & 3.

It certainly doesn't improve in close up.

So, as well as a set of main baring shells, I am also in the market for a set of big end baring shells as well.

The crank itself looks to be perfectly fine, with no striations discernible on the journals.

I also managed to remove the front plate, which revealed the remains of the rather quaint paper gasket.

Doesn't look like it has seen the light of day since it was assembled in 1968.

Anyone know what was so special about Cooperite?

I'll tell you one thing, it's magical power was certainly not coming off the front plate!

I had to resort to the razor blade and then finally a strip disc, as the gasket sealant was just not budging otherwise.

I still need to clean up the engine mounting lugs, but I will probably use the blast cabinet for that.

However here it is with the freshly cleaned and painted timing cover checking the fit of the gaskets.

The cover needs a rub down, and a final coat of gloss black enamel, after which I will tuck it away somewhere safe until needed.

Which leaves me with a question of whether I need to pull the pistons and check the little end bearings?

Again, all suggestions willingly received.

Karl

[johny]

Can you see the bores and whether theyre scored? Never heard of problems with little ends and if your compressions were good I would leave the pistons unless you want to go the whole hog😮

You have been so lucky with the crank bearings as usually by the time people hear them rattling the journals are damaged and a regrind is needed. I take it youve confirmed the crank is standard size (should be stamped on back of bearing shells) so now you need to think about which bearings to buy as theres different types, makes and prices. Vandervell seem to be the most highly regarded but are difficult to find plus expensive. Theyre the same construction as your originals, tri-metals but theres also cheaper bi-metal ones and each type has different characteristics...

What do the thrust bearings look like and how much end float did the crank have? These also come in different thicknesses so you can get the right reading...

[Bordfunker]

Johny, the bores are as smooth as silk I’m glad to say, with no evidence of scoring, so it looks like I will get away with a bottom end rebuild only.

I haven’t confirmed that the crank is standard size yet, but assuming it is, as there is no evidence of anyone having been at it since it left the factory, but something to check this evening.

There was no longitudinal movement in the crank before I took it out, but then I didn’t measure the tolerances at that point.

What I will do is pop it back in, with the thrust washers, and do a proper measurement of the end float.

With regards the bearings, tri-metal is the way I would prefer to go, particularly given the close call on the current shells, so I have some research to do this week.

Thanks

Karl

 

[johny]

Yes if youre going to replace the thrusts you need to mic them and compare to the sizes available for new ones to get the end float correct...

[Bordfunker]

I had a look at the thrust washers just now, and it took me a while to work out where they were supposed to fit.

The WSM is less than clear on the topic, so it took me a couple of minutes to figure out that they go either side of the rear bearing bridge, where the arrows are pointing.

I’m assuming that is correct?

With the thrust washers in place, I put the crank back in and measured the fore and aft movement, which came out at .010 of an inch, which is within tolerance according to the WSM.

This is what the thrust washers look like.

One doesn’t appear to have any white metal on it at all.

 

Whereas the other just looks a little tired and battered.

 

So, given the above, I am assuming that I am in the market for a set of standard thrush washers.

I also checked the bearing shells, for evidence that they were over size, but  aside from some part numbers and a VP logo, no indication of them being +10 etc..

So again, I am assuming that these are standard size.

Karl

 

[Josef]

The acceptable crank journal measurements should be in the WSM too which’ll let you measure that to be certain it’s not been ground under size. 

[johny]

yes one of those thrusts looks very strange - squashed and with chunks missing? They dont seem to match either...

New ones will be thicker (even replacement standard size ones) so your endfloat will end up tighter. The manual should say what thickness new ones will be if you want to check.

REMEMBER the white metal surface (usually has an oil channel or two in it like the better of your old ones) must rub against the crank ie facing away from the main bearing. Yes mistakes have been made before😲

[NonMember]

It's worth a visual inspection of the thrust faces on the crankshaft - which should be smooth and flat - but from those photos I'm not expecting you to find any problems there.

[johny]

Looking at the photos again, was the undamaged thrust actually in the right way round? It looks old but new as I would have expected the surface to show some polishing....

[Pete Lewis]

one does look as if its been back to front   found somethat looked as bad  like that in my 2000  which had two back to front fitted somewhere back in history 

doesnt do the crank face a lot of good 

the oil release groove  is showing so it may just have worn the bronzed face away  and worn down to the steel backing 

Pete

[johny]

Yes heres a new thrust for a six cylinder and I think it looks very similar to Karls good one with a copper coloured thrust face (you can just see the numbering stamped on the silver coloured reverse face in the first pic). As Rob says, an inspection of Karls crank is essential....

[Bordfunker]

Thanks everyone.

First off this evening I checked the main bearing and big end bearing journals on the crank with a calliper gauge, and they all came up at book spec, so are as manufactured.

Next up was checking the faces of the crank which face the thrust washers.

A finger was run around each face, and no trace of roughness or a lip was detected, so I’m counting that as good to go.

Finally I measured the thrush washers themselves, and as expected, they measure up as just below base WSM spec.

Therefore I am going to go with a set of standard replacement thrust washers, as anything larger won’t leave sufficient clearance.

I used a standard set of callipers, i.e. non-digital, to measure everything, but have ordered a digital pair to do a final check before I start ringing around for a decent set of tri-metal bearings.

I figure it’s worth spending £20 on a better set of callipers, to ensure that my reading of all the measurements are spot on.

Any suggestions welcome.

Karl

Thanks

Karl