** 26/02/23 Heading Up ** Probably how not to restore a Herald!

[johny]

Wait cancel the order for the vernier callipers because I dont think they can measure with sufficient precision! It needs a good quality micrometer (of sufficient size) to check whether the journals are within the five TEN thousanths inch (0.0005") out of round limit.

If you do want it done you normally go to a specialist shop as its not worth getting your own instrument...

[PeteH]

I would`nt get too hung up with Ovality, At the sizes you are looking at, One thousanth inch would be perfectly acceptable. Unless you are looking at "blueprinting" the engine?, Yes Vernier calipers, are not perfect but for making checks at this level adequate. In fact in the right hands, ordinary calipers will tell you if there is any ovality, it`s about the "feel". My "gut" feeling, reading your Post, is that you will be OK with a new set of standard shells. 

If you have further concerns, Ask About, some, especially older retired fitter`s and turner`s often have their personal Micrometers, as have I, and may be quite willing to either lend or even do the checks themselves. In fact almost anyone who owns a Lathe?, Small workshops will often do it for a contribution to the tea fund.

Pete

 

[Pete Lewis]

i would agree just fit some new shells and youre up and running 

utopia can cost a fortune ,, normality is more easily achieved and fine for normal useage 

youre not after a 6k reving race car are you ???

Pete

[Bordfunker]

I didn’t cancel the digital callipers as they have been on the wanted list for a while, predominately for my model making, so an easy justification in this instance.

I did go over all the journals last night with the new callipers and everything  is as per book spec., so rather than stressing it, I’ll go with a set of standard shells for mains and big ends.

I have pinged Mick Dolphin a mail as it looks like he has the big end bearings in stock, and potentially the mains as well. These are all VP NOS, so my preference against some modern bearings.

Having said that, I did read that the County tri-metal bearings are actually made by King, and very good quality.

On the thrust washers, this one checked out as marginally under spec.

 

Not that I will be reusing it given it’s battered state, while this one was unsurprisingly well under book thickness.

 

I have asked Mick if he has any, but I’m not holding my breath as there weren’t any on the list.

The only other work I’ve done on the engine this week is remove the crank case breather tube, to make painting the engine easier, that and scraping old gaskets and sealant of the front face of the block.

Not exciting, but very necessary all the same.

Thanks again for all the guidance, much appreciated.

Karl

 

[johny]

Just as long as theres sufficient end play with the new thrusts. I believe you can take metal off the back of them if necessary but it must be a pain....

[Bordfunker]

Had a chat with Mick Dolphin today and have scored a set of NOS big end bearings, as well as a set of NOS thrust washers.

I also spoke to Paddocks about their tri-metal bearings, turns out they are made by King, so excellent quality, so I ordered some.

Even though the oil pump checked out OK, I’m a bit suspicious of the pump given the damage to the bearings so Mick is also shipping me a NOS FAI oil pump. 

I’ll check the spec’s before I fit it, but at £25 it’s worth a punt.

Finally, there are a couple of brackets attached to the head by the head studs, the throttle cable, and the heater bypass pipe.

If I remove these nuts, do I need to release the entire set of head nuts, or is it OK just to remove these two?

I have ordered new washers to go under the nuts, but don’t want to get further into this than I need to just to paint a couple of brackets.

Thanks

Karl

[PeteH]

9 hours ago, Bordfunker said:

If I remove these nuts, do I need to release the entire set of head nuts, or is it OK just to remove these two?

At 42/46Lb/Ft, released one at a time, and imediately re-torqued, you should be OK. The down side would be that If not, its going to be a "head job" anyway, and probably once you have got it all back up and running. I vaguely remember "getting away" with something similar on a Ford Engine, back "when". You could even consider, when replacing the refurbished brackets, backing the whole head off and re-torqeuing?.

Pete

[Pete Lewis]

not wishing to make more work but as the bottom end was pretty tired i would have thought that a head of for  a clean up and new gasket would be a wise move 

and with all the old crud that attaches tothe studs a good thread clean will ensure the new washers and replacing  nuts do clamp the gasket not the crap in the threads 

if a nut is tired do not try a std 3/8unf nut it will just strip  

pete

[Bordfunker]

Thanks both of you for your thoughts on this, it really does help to have members of the hive mind to bounce ideas off of.

I’m not averse to popping the head and replacing the head gasket, in which case I would also strip the head and get it checked for flatness.

I would also look to replace all of the head nuts with the upgraded ones that Paddock’s sell, and which I am assuming do away with the need for a washer, given the broader footprint?

What I will do is finish rebuilding the bottom end, before I start on the top end.

Thanks

Karl

[Pete Lewis]

yes but mini spares are cheaper and yes dont need a loose washer 

CAM4545 - Mini head nut flanged type for cylinder head (minispares.com)

Pete

[Bordfunker]

Thanks Pete, I’ll give them a go.

Used to use Minispares years ago when I had my first car, obviously a mini.

Thanks

Karl

[68vitesse]

Used Mini spares for flanged head nuts on my Mk1 2L earlier this year, used without washers, also used them on the rocker pedestals.

Regards.

Paul.

[Bordfunker]

Paul, that's a good point about using these nuts for the valve pedestals as well.

I'll have to add these to my order when I place it.

I've ordered a number of parts for the bottom end rebuild, but these won't appear until next week, so this weekend was instead spent on cleaning, stripping and painting.

First up was the core plugs as I had noticed that at least one had already been replaced, and another was definitely the worse for wear, as a scrub with a wire brush soon showed.

This was one of the three on the manifold side of the block, furthest right in the pic below.

That pipe is very much in the way, so I started the head removal process slightly earlier than anticipated, as Triumph in their wisdom had decided that the bracket which secures the pipe to the head, is attached by a bracket under a head nut!

Therefore you have to release the pressure on the head gasket, just to remove this pipe.

Great piece of design there Triumph!

Given that the core plugs were an unknown quantity, and having heard horror stories of core plugs failing in inaccessible locations after engines had been re-installed, I have decided to go the whole hog, and replace practically all of the core plugs. The only exception is the plug covering the rear cam shaft bearing which has obviously been replaced at some point in the recent past.

So there followed an hour or so of ripping out the old core plugs, using a half inch masonry chisel and a lump hammer.

I found that striking the plug at it's base with the chisel caused it to pivot out, making it fairly straightforward to remove, in most cases.

Excuse my old socks!

These 3 were about the most difficult, and I ended up breaking one of my screwdrivers in the process.

Note that I have finally been able to remove the dizzy pedestal! It was stuck on with a ton of gasket sealant, but more later.

Still a bit of gasket sealant to be removed there, so something to do during the week.

The plug below is pretty representative of all of the plugs which came out of the block.

I will hold off fitting the core plugs until the block has been painted, which will only happen after I have got the head off.

As I said, I wasn't expecting to take the head off, but having been egged on by the two Petes, not that it took a lot of egging, but given the need to reach core plugs, and refurb some of the brackets which sit on top of the head, it's the right thing to do.

I removed the rocker shaft and pedestals yesterday, along with the push rods, making sure to keep everything in order, and in the right place.

This also allowed me to access the head retaining nuts and studs which sit beneath the rocker gear.

Now, all of the nuts came off without a fight, but as we all know that doesn't mean that the head will, and sure enough mine refused to budge.

Also, Sod's law, I ran out of penetrating fluid, so I sprayed on what I had left, and left it overnight.

I tried double nutting the studs out, but that only worked for the ones inside the area covered by the cam cover itself. Unsurprisingly the ones down the edge of the block were stuck fast, so with my supplies of penetrating fluid replenished, everything has been thoroughly doused in fluid, covered with a cloth, and will be left to soak now.

I'm tempted to replace the take off for the heater from the top of the head, but that just feels like tempting fate.

We'll see how things go this week, but if needs be I'll break out the welder and weld nuts to the top of each of the studs, as I'm resigned to replacing these studs given they are likely to be corroded, and let the thermal shock of the welding loosen them up.

As components have been cleaned up and painted, they are being added to the 'Clean' table.

Which also includes a number of the new components required for the rebuild. 

The engine front and back plates have been cleaned up, rust stopped, and primed ready for a coat of gloss black, along with the crankcase breather tube.

I mentioned the dizzy pedestal earlier, this had been stuck to the block as if glued on, which to be fair it sort of had been, but with a bit of levering with an old screwdriver, it finally gave up its purchase.

With it loose, I was able to add it to the clean up pile, which included, in no particular order, the lower fan belt pully, the pedestal, engine lifting bracket and throttle cable bracket.

These have all been rust stoppered, and will get a coat of primer later in the week, ahead of a coat of nice shiny black at the weekend, weather permitting.

Despite this being a bit of weird, and somewhat sad weekend, I am counting this as good progress, even if I do have a car in slightly more pieces than I did the week before. Hey ho.

Karl

[Colin Lindsay]

Remember when replacing plugs, that the centre one of the three in-line, on the dipstick side of the block, will leak. None of the rest will, but that's the one you can't get at with the manifold in place, so it leaks. All of mine did, but thankfully, when the engine warmed up for the first time, they stopped and never restarted.

[PeteH]

While you have the core plugs out, great oportunity to give the Block passages a good flush out too. Ref; your brackets Under Head nuts. Is there room to get a Half nut on the top, once torqued down?. Rather than put them under the head Nuts?. This type of bracket is generally just M-S and easy to fabricate a slightly longer version?.

Pete

[Bordfunker]

Colin it’s more the ones at the back of the block and head that worry me as they will be all but inaccessible one the bulkhead goes back on.

The ones on the side of the engine would be a pain, but at least you can reach them.

Pete what’s the best way of flushing out the waterways?

My parcel from Mick Dolphin turned up today so I’ll post some pics later in the week.

Who would ever have thought that receiving parts with a Leyland logo on would engender such feelings of trust!

Karl

[Peter Truman]

re cleaning the cooling jacket passage ways after the screwdriver push and turn exercise, I used a length of throttle cable eg Bowden in the end of a drill chuck and as it spins it untwists and removes rust from hard to get to places then frequently hoover out the debris dust!

I obviously paid extra attention to the rear 2 cylinders where circulation is less.

[Pete Lewis]

19 hours ago, Bordfunker said:

Pete what’s the best way of flushing out the waterways?

not much help for a non runner but whe shes alive  i have always sponsored using a couple of cupfulls of cheap washing soda 

run for a week then seriously flush out   cheap and works  

but while she's in bits  its ideas like PT  mechanical and vacuum 

Pete

[Bordfunker]

Thanks for the suggestions, I will have to try the cable and drill trick first, and when the car is back up and running, sometime in the next 15 years, I'll give the soda crystals a go.

I didn't manage to do anything yesterday as I was out test driving our next car....

.....I say car, it's actually classed as quadricycle, but it is an EV, and ideal for most of the driving that I seem to do these days

Today though I made up for my 'cheating' on the Triumph and returned to the challenge of getting the head off the block.

A week of soaking the head studs in penetrating fluid had made not an iota of difference, and the head was showing no signs of wanting to move, so onto plan B.

Plan B involved welding a head nut onto each of the studs, trying to get as much heat as possible into the stud in order to try and break the seal created by 50+ years of corrosion.

In all but one instance, this approach worked, though often needed multiple heating cycles before the offending stud would move, but even then, only with the assistance of a 3ft breaker bar.

The one that didn't wind out, snapped!

However, given that it was the last stud left in, and there are no dowels between the block and the head, I was able to start gently twisting the head, applying more penetrating fluid as I went.

About 10 minutes of this first got the head able to be fully rotated around the errant stud, and then, slowly but surely able to be lifted off the stud, leaving me with this.

I started with the same approach as before, welding a nut to the top of the stud, but the distance between the top of the stud and the block was such that the real heat just wasn't getting to the base of the stud in the block.

With that not working, I cut off the stud about an inch above the top of the block, and then used a tap & die set to cut a new thread, allowing me to attach a nut much lower down, where the heat of the weld may actually have an impact.

Again the breaker bar came into play, and made short work of the remains of the stud, which was soon out.

Unfortunately in the process of doing all this I managed to scuff the top edge of No.1 cylinder with a flap disc, so this will need to be addressed.

I was planning on getting the head checked for flatness, and getting it skimmed, so I will do the same with the block itself, particularly given the corrosion around some of the water passages in the top of the block.

As you can see the bores are in really nice condition, with no ridge at the top, just a line of old claggy oil and carbon deposits that I will need to clean off.

With the block stripped practically bare, I liberally brushed on some Gunk, and fired up the steam cleaner, letting everything soak for 15 minutes, before blasting the muck off.

It's quite entertaining putting the nozzle of the steam cleaner up against one of the oil ways, and watching crud fly out of the various other oil ways around the block. This was repeated until I was just getting clean steam, and the same for the water ways.

Following that, the block was then dried off with a hot air gun, ensuring that all of the water had been evaporated off.

The pistons were dropped out of the block prior to attacking the stud, so these, along with the head and cam shaft were placed in the 'dirty' area to await clean up.

I need to buy a valve spring compressor this week, so that I can fully dissemble the head, after which everything will get a very thorough clean up, before it heads off to the machine shop.

Also in the dirty zone, and awaiting both a clean up and checking, are all the other head components.

Don't worry, everything has been stored in order, so that it will go back in the same place as it came from when everything get's rebuilt.

I'm not re-using the head gasket, it's just there to confirm the correct orientation for the new one.

The head that it sat under appears to be in good, if somewhat mucky condition.

Before I take the valves out I will do quick drain test to see how well the valves are actually sealing.

Now normally that would be it for the weekend, however given the current circumstances, and the unforeseen bank holiday, I'm hoping that I might get some more clean up done tomorrow.

Karl

[daverclasper]

Well done. Flipping heck, the problems at times with a supposedly straightforward job of removing a head, and then after, at times the gasket not always sealing, for various reasons!.

I don't know much about this, though will that scuff around the edge effect it?

Is there a way to address it, aside from a skim?

[Bordfunker]

Dave, it always seems so simple when you read the manual!

The scuff is pretty minor, but there are also a couple of areas of corrosion where the water flows between the head and the block, so I think it's probably worth getting the head decked to address these and the scuff, after all, I don't plan on doing this again anytime soon.

The local TSSC hive mind have put me onto a couple of local machine shops, so I'll give them a bell this week to get an idea of cost.

After yesterday's major disassembly exercise, I started with something a little lighter, flatting back the sump and timing gear cover for a fresh top coat of enamel black.

I used a piece of Scotchbrite for flatting back the bulk of it, with some 100 grit for a couple of the runs that I'd managed top put on the engine back plate.

They may just be engine components that most people will never see, especially the sump, but it's nice to have them clean in glossy black.

The back and front plates also got the same treatment, but these will need a bit more work as I managed to put a number of sags and runs into the finish.

The front plate is actually pretty OK, its the back plate that will need flatting back, as I had the pressure too high when spraying, so entirely my own fault.

The rest of the painting went fine, giving some items to add to the 'clean' table ready for when the engine goes back together.

That's the front pully, alternator mount and dizzy pedestal ready to go.

Aside from the painting, I did actually manage to get something vaguely technical done, checking the condition of the camshaft.

Here it is pre-clean up.

Slight panic attack when comparing dimensions with the WSM, as mine appeared to be massively out, but then dawned on me that the WSM is for an early engine, which mine is not, so over to the Haynes manual instead.

I'm rather assuming that the later 13/60 engines used the same camshaft, as mine is spot on the book spec for one of these.

As for the cam lobes, these were all immaculate, with no sign of wear.

The above was taken pre-clean up, so the marks are merely dirt, rather than damage.

So, following a thorough clean up, the camshaft joins the sump and timing cover on the 'clean' table.

Next up disassembling the head.

Karl

[Pete Lewis]

take care on painting mounting faces   things like back plates etc are left bare  as paint will allow the fixing to shuffle not grip firmly 

leaving bare is pretty std practice 

Pete

[Bordfunker]

Pete, I did wonder about that as mine was partially painted, and I have seen a number that appear to have been fully painted by the factory.

The front plate was definitely painted back and front, but the backplate I’ll take back to bare steel where it meets the block.

Speaking of blocks I’ve found a place locally that can certainly do the head, but may not be able to do the block. While there is a place that can do both for £140 in Milton Keynes, which seems fair.

The bores themselves are pretty shiny, see below, therefore is it worth getting them glaze busted while they are in the machine shop?

Final question of the evening, is the bush that sits under the dizzy/oil pump drive, supposed to come out? The WSM appears to show it as removable.

Karl

[NonMember]

12 hours ago, Bordfunker said:

Final question of the evening, is the bush that sits under the dizzy/oil pump drive, supposed to come out? The WSM appears to show it as removable.

Do you mean the one the pump shaft runs through? If so, it's possible to drift it out but a pain to refit. Whether you need to depends on what work is done to the block.

[Bordfunker]

On 21/09/2022 at 08:35, NonMember said:

Do you mean the one the pump shaft runs through? If so, it's possible to drift it out but a pain to refit. Whether you need to depends on what work is done to the block.

Thanks. In that case I will leave strictly alone.

The valve spring compression tool turned up today, so I can start cleaning and stripping the head this weekend.

Karl