Injected Herald on Car SOS

[juppy]

Having watched the program, I'd quite like to do this to my 13/60 engined Herald. I know from Fuzz that it was a VW Polo throttle body that was used and needed very little modification to fit. However I don't know which one it was other than it was an early Polo. As far as I can see the first injected ones were 1983 onwards. Does anyone have any idea from which model/year the  throttle body  was from, and what the part number may be?

I have all the megasquirt electronics to drive it and although I know multi point would perform better i want to keep this fairly simple.

 

Garth

[Mike Crewes]

Garth

 

Jo, the owner, is a Club member, living in Cornwall.  I will see her and her husband Steve on Thursday and will ask them to get in touch with you.  I know that they have had a lot of problems with the injection system and despite their wish to get it to work, they are about to give up and revert to a carburettor.  A number of injection specialists have tried and failed to get it to work.

 

Regards

Mike

[Steve C]

So much for EFI being the panacea for all ills then... and they made it all sound so easy in the programme! I am reminded of the old adage, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

 

Steve

[Eddie]

I was wondering why they had chosen to fit the fuel injection. The commentary on the programme suggested that it was for improved reliability as the car was to be used daily. I thought this was odd as the Stromberg carburettor is not known to be unreliable.

 

A colleague at work suggested it was probably done to improve economy but it seems to have turned out to be neither reliable or economical.

 

Shame, as it seemed like a fairly simple modification.

[Clive]

EFI is inherently better than a carb. What has failed here is the design of the system.

 

I actually started my spitfire last weekend, with a properly designed EFi setup and it was pre-mapped. Flicked the key, and a pretty steady idle after 6 years of sitting in an unfinished car. no drama, no over-rich exhaust. The only thing is I think it needs a tweek to the TB balance as I couldn't leave my tea for long on the cam cover before it moved to an edge, but that is only a minor tweek.

 

Nobody should just expect a setup to work because it looks like it should fit.... 

[Mike Crewes]

I agree with Clive.  The EFI should, if properly sorted, deliver the correct amount of fuel for all engine and throttle settings, whereas the carburetor can only do this for a very small range, the rest of the time it's slightly out.  On the programme they explained this and showed the result by showing that it had more power than a standard car, when they raced down the runway.  Steve and Jo say that there car is very good when driven hard, but on slow engine speeds it is unpredictable and stalls.  They have tried to get it set up better and persevered with it thus far, but since there is no 'Herald ECU' they are having problems.

 

On the otherehand, Mike Warnes' Trials TR7 is running MegaSquirt injection very successfully (he's also fitted a supercharger), but then Mike is an Electro-Mechanical Engineer.

 

So the problem with the injection is not the system, but the set up, get that right and it SHOULD be better than a carb.

 

Regards

Mike

[Monty Rustbucket]

Mike,

 

could you possibly give me contact details for the owner of the blue Herald (Jo).  My car is the red one in that episode and I took a load of pics when they were being raced. Thought she might like some copies.  I have tried to get her details but to no avail.  cheers John

 

Oh, by the way.  The reason the fuel injected car was faster was that they asked me to keep a couple of car lengths behind   

[Mike Crewes]

Monty

 

Have PM'd you.

 

Regards

Mike

[rogerguzzi]

EFI is inherently better than a carb. What has failed here is the design of the system.

 

I actually started my spitfire last weekend, with a properly designed EFi setup and it was pre-mapped. Flicked the key, and a pretty steady idle after 6 years of sitting in an unfinished car. no drama, no over-rich exhaust. The only thing is I think it needs a tweek to the TB balance as I couldn't leave my tea for long on the cam cover before it moved to an edge, but that is only a minor tweek.

 

Nobody should just expect a setup to work because it looks like it should fit.... 

Hello Clive

                 I am going to try and fit EFI to my Spitfire, I have picked up a Microsquirt unit and some other bits for £250(unused)

I have been running Megajolt for about 5 years now so I thought in for a penny etc.

How did you design your system and what parts did you use?

Thank's

Roger

ps It was not me you gave water to at Classic Le Mans

[Darren Groves]

Hi Roger,

 

If you haven't seen them before, then have a read of these:

 

http://triumphspitfire.rickbaines.com/category/fuel-injection/

 

http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic/7048-manifold-fabrication/

 

It's worth joining the Sideways forum, Nick Jones on there is a great source of information.

 

Darren

[Clive]

My spitfire has an (not exactly a bargain) off the shelf package using A pair of jenvey throttle bodies on a Weber inlet manifold. In all honesty using a single throttle body o. A plenium would be much simpler and easier to set up. Nick Jones really is THE man for this sort of stuff.

I am thinking of a few changes so watch out for a progress report. About Christmas the speed I work.

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

             My Microsquirt kit arrived today and I am pleased with what is in it.

 

Microsquirt and plug/lead

Map sensor and plug

7 sensor plugs

Edis4 and plug(not needed)

Programming lead and USB adaptor

Large wiring pack

All for £250?

Looking at the specs it can do everything except make the tea?(probably possible to use a spare connection for that?) 

 

So now the head scratching starts

I have been looking at this site

 

http://www.classicfuelinjection.co.uk/

 

Their complete kit sounds a reasonable price £1368 inc vat

 

I am not keen on the SU spacer adaptors but it got me thinking I could machine the inlet manifold and make injector pockets to be welded in at an angle? 

 

What do we think?

 

They list Bosch injectors with a flow rate of 315cc/min how critical is this? they say each is capable of 60 BHP so 2 should be plenty?

 

How critical is the ATS sensor position?

 

I think this is going to keep me quite for months?

 

Will the Microsquirt learn the same if I fit a lambda sensor (pocket already on exhaust pipe)not read all specs yet?

 

i think I will remove the Ford Edis unit and drive the coil with an ignition amplifier.(just more complication and can sell it with the Megajolt unit((I have 3 now?))

 

Do we use air idle valves?

 

I found this site for injector spec

 

http://www.bulletperformanceracing.com.au/Bosch%20Fuel%20Injectors%20Table%20155.html

 

 

Roger (with hurting brain)

[Clive]

I think you need a look at Nick Jones stuff, both for his vitesse and also his current project, a 1500 spit his son is building. http://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic/7048-manifold-fabrication/

Mike weaver has recently injected his sprint with microsquirt, using jenveys. http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/blogs/blogview.cgi?blog=489327

Personally, a plenium and a single throttle body still looks the "best" solution to me. Using the SU's as  throttle bodies has few benefits and seems clunky.

[Darren Groves]

Roger,

 

As Clive and I have mentioned, Nick Jones is the font of all EFI knowledge, get yourself on the Sideways forum and you'll find loads of info.

 

Where on earth did you get your MS from, all that for £250?

 

Just a couple of thoughts....

 

I don't really see the point in doing an EFI conversion by modifying a SU or Stromberg Manifold, you'll end up disappointed and wanting to change it. Do some more research, there are far better ways of doing it. An injector per cylinder will be better than a singe or dual point, so if you go that route the injector you mentions will over fuel it.

 

Yes to an ATS, and a Microsquirt supports On/Off or PWM Idle Valves, but not stepper type.

 

Microsquirt has built in narrowband lambda support, which is fine if you're going to get it set-up on a rolling road and leave it alone. If you want to try and set up yourself you'll need to choose a wideband controller.

 

Early days with mine, but here's a couple of pics.

 

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Darren

                    The dreaded Ebay is were I found the kit it had been ordered by a chap to do a Ford Zetec I think but he acquired the Ford wiring etc.

So I was just in the right place at the right time and saved £100+

There certainly a lot to think about.

Why cant I just get a set of motorcycle injector bodies and fabricate a manifold?(I know it cant be that easy?)

 

Roger

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

             More thoughts to be shot down but may as well ask!

 

What if I modified a standard twin carb manifold and machined and have welded on 4 injector bosses and then fit a pair of either of these?

 

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/products2/individual-throttle-bodies/sfs-short-30mm-individual-body/sfs-40-50mm-body-0-inj-sfsxx-0-0

 

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/products2/individual-throttle-bodies/st-small-2-bolt-individual-body/st-35-45mm-body-0-inj-stxx-0-0

 

Now I know I am thick but can someone explain how the injection works on the Microsquirt when there is only 2 injector feeds and 4 injectors?(this is a steep learning curve!) still better than doing them numbers game things?

 

Roger

[Clive]

You could, but a single TB and plenium would be a better solution. After all it is what the huge majority of production cars use. Or go for ITB's, 

 

Or if you really must use a pair of TB's (downside is that even with SU's, the pulsing is all wrong, 1-3-4-2 or indeed 2-1-3-4 means the front carb pulls 2 pulses, then the rear 2 pulses, rather than alternating) you have the skills to fit a pair of bike throttle bodies. Have a few hundred pounds in the process....

[Darren Groves]

Hi Roger,

 

You can have a standard twin carb manifold modified, but those that have gone this route have been disappointed with the result. I am certainly no expert, so others may explain better, but basically the old manifolds are quite restrictive so you'll be going to a lot of effort for no real gain.

 

A multiple throttle body set up is just more difficult, that's why many go for the plenum and single throttle body, it's what most car manufacturers do, so it must work!

 

Microsquirt uses batch injection, so it squirts fuel when not on the compression stroke. You can set-up sequential injection (only squirts when on compression) with Megasquirt and I think Microsquirt does semi-sequential (IIRC).

 

Darren

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Darren

                     Is this the throttle body you are going to use?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262479671525?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

I have looked at used ones but I thought for £65 a new one with TPS seemed good value? were as used off ebay is an unknown condition especially the TPS.

 

I have been reading the Microsquirt instructions etc and It looks as thou we can run the Ford type coil pack direct and do not need amplifier in between?

 

The only though I had was the Edis has a limp mode if Megajolt fails! but it does not matter on Microsquirt because if it fails having sparks are not going to help so it may as well go? and can be sold with the Megajolt(I have 3 Edis 4,s now with plugs!)

 

What fuel pump and regulator are you going to use?

 

Is the plenum chamber the right place for the Air temperature sensor?

 

What about a regulator like this?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-140-PSI-Blue-Adjustable-Fuel-Oil-Pressure-Regulator-w-Aluminum-Gauge-/301833186766?hash=item4646a8edce:g:LBUAAOSwJcZWe6t-

 

Roger

[Darren Groves]

Hi Roger,

 

This is quite funny, you're asking all the same question I was a few weeks ago so it's good timing!

 

The TB you've highlighted is the same as mine, but I have the 48mm one, depends on what your target BHP is but I think either will work just fine on a 1300/1500cc. Mine was used and with TPS, but I did get it very cheap, so not the end of the world if the TPS doesn't work. I always like a bargain, so I'd risk a used one 

 

You'll need some kind of ignition amplifier, they are not built into the MS. EDIS makes the installation simpler, plus you already have it there if you've been using MJ. The EDIS is pretty reliable and robust, personally I'd leave it in place.

 

Here's a few links to parts that I've highlighted, if you want my full list send me a PM with your email address and I'll forward it to you:

 

Fuel Filter

Fuel Pump or use a Bosch one, the part number is in the title

Regulator Avoid the cheap Unbranded/Chinese/Blingy regulators, you may find that they don't regulate the pressure very accurately.

 

Air Temp Sensor can be mounted in the plenum just after the TB, but may suffer from heatsoak or if you are going to run some kind of trunking from the TB to a filter then somewhere in between there will be fine, most productions cars have them like this.

 

Hope that helps!

[rogerguzzi]

Hello darren

                   PM,d

 

Roger

 

ps But we must keep telling every one else what we are doing and or our mistakes?

[Darren Groves]

Got the PM, will email list of bits to you in the morning as I won't have access to my Laptop tonight.

 

Have you considered what you'll be doing with your fuel tank? As the Spit tank is quite flat, you'll need a swirl pot. It's a bit simpler on the Herald as the tank is tall and thin, so will just have an outlet at the bottom.

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Darren

                    I have not thought about that much yet.

What would be nice is to have a flange fitted to suit a modern submersible pump with the return built in(but who is going to weld a petrol tank?)

 

Roger

[Darren Groves]

(but who is going to weld a petrol tank?)

I have done and am considering doing it to my spare so I can modify for the EFI conversion, but not something to do without some serious prep first.

 

Most radiator specialist will repair/modify fuel tanks, they will send them off for a deep clean before working on them.

[rogerguzzi]

Hi Roger,

 

This is quite funny, you're asking all the same question I was a few weeks ago so it's good timing!

 

The TB you've highlighted is the same as mine, but I have the 48mm one, depends on what your target BHP is but I think either will work just fine on a 1300/1500cc. Mine was used and with TPS, but I did get it very cheap, so not the end of the world if the TPS doesn't work. I always like a bargain, so I'd risk a used one 

 

You'll need some kind of ignition amplifier, they are not built into the MS. EDIS makes the installation simpler, plus you already have it there if you've been using MJ. The EDIS is pretty reliable and robust, personally I'd leave it in place.

 

Here's a few links to parts that I've highlighted, if you want my full list send me a PM with your email address and I'll forward it to you:

 

Fuel Filter

Fuel Pump or use a Bosch one, the part number is in the title

Regulator Avoid the cheap Unbranded/Chinese/Blingy regulators, you may find that they don't regulate the pressure very accurately.

 

Air Temp Sensor can be mounted in the plenum just after the TB, but may suffer from heatsoak or if you are going to run some kind of trunking from the TB to a filter then somewhere in between there will be fine, most productions cars have them like this.

 

Hope that helps!

Have a look at this

 

http://www.microsquirt.info/dcoil.htm