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Hi-torque starter often not engaging


terryj
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The hi-torque starter motor (ex Canley Classics) fitted to the Vitesse Mk2 engine in my Gentry often appears to fail to engage.  When I turn the key it emits a loud scream which I presume is the motor turning but it fails to engage with the flywheel starter ring.  This has happened occasionally in the past but has occurred several times recently.  This may happen several times before it eventually engages and fires up the engine.

I am familiar with the need to graphite lubricate the throw out pinion mechanism on a traditional starter but is there any likelihood that I should do the same on the hi-torque starter?  I don't have a diagram of the hi-torque starter workings so don't know if it operates in the same way.

Terry 

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If its like the one in my Vitesse the solenoid on the motor casing first moves an arm to engage the pinion with the flywheel ring gear and at the end of its travel energises the motor. The pinion engages on the opposite side of the ring gear to the standard starter motor.

Have you removed it and checked everything is free to move?.

Regards

Paul

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as far as im aware theres no servicing or graphiting you can do

i take it you have the spacer in place to correct the stand off position against the rear plate ??

these should engage the pinion before it powers up the main motor , so it would seem something is wrong if its powered up

and not 'in mesh' first .....some have had serious corrosion of the engagement solenoid. with water ingress 

Ive never had a problem myself..

Pete

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Thanks for your comment Pete.  I have now removed the starter and found that there are two thin spacer shims fitted which presumably means that the pinion stands off from the flywheel more than it should do.  When tested on the bench the starter worked fine and the pinion throws out OK.  I attach some photos of the stripped down motor which shows the motor itself is fine, nice clean commutator and brush gear.  When turned the reduction gear operates OK.  I have not stripped down the solenoid because, quite frankly, I don't know what I'm looking for there!

The pinion teeth look a bit worn where they engage the flywheel.  Do you think the extra spacer shim could cause my problem and removing one shim could cure it?

Terry

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Couple of thoughts

The flywheel teeth will be chamfered on  the rear to aid bendix pinion to engage , the front of the tooth will be straight cut

On things like lucas pre engaged  the solenoid indexes the pinion 1/2 a tooth every time its fired so it enhages fully , it would have a chamfered tooth leading edge, 

On these so called hi torque geared i dont know if they index the pinion ???  And i would expect the pinion to have a chamfered lead 

Your one has straight cut , so any miss match in alignment will clash and skid , hence the damage on the pinion tooth faces

So with a flat toothed ring gear and a flat toothed pinion.....   hopeless

Just my thoughts 

Pete

 

 

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To test if it indexes , a dab of tippex on  a  tooth and a dab  aligned on the casing 

fire the solenoid with motor disconnected,  it should move the tooth position with every click

Thats if its supposed too!!!!

How else would the teeth align on throw out

You could attack the  teeth and add a full chamfer

Im at HQ next week for twiddle day i will have a look at what we sell .

Edit just looking at pics online they  look pretty flat ended teeth !!!!!

 

 

Pete

 

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Tony - yes they appear to be metal filings, probably from where the starter pinion has been clashing with the flywheel ring and that would account for the horrible screeching noise that occurs when it does not engage properly with the flywheel.

Pete - you make some very valid points.  I did the indexing check on the solenoid and it does move the pinion a fraction each time.  I agree that there does not appear to be any chamfer on the pinion teeth (see two more attached photos) which would not help in engaging with the flywheel.  I cannot see that Canley Classics sell this hi-torque starter motor now and perhaps that's why!  I will try to put a chamfer on the pinion teeth to see if that helps as you suggest.

Going back to the spacer, I said I have two thin shims but I do also have the thick (c. 7/16") spacer fitted as well.  Would leaving out one or both shims make any difference?  I have not measured them but probably about 25 thou thick each.

Thanks for your offer to look at these starters at HQ on 7th April but I need to get this sorted before then as I need the car for a 4 day Gentry Register event starting 8th April.

Terry

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Hi I fitted the Club shop high torque on my vitesse mk 2 and removed the 2 thin shims . I have a spare engine so was able to measure the depth required . If you get stuck I still have the Bendix starter which you could borrow assuming you are not to far away from Bury St Edmunds 

Paul 

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Hi Paul.  Many thanks for the Bendix offer but I probably still have my original starter around somewhere and I'm in Hampshire quite some way from Bury St Edmunds.  Interesting to hear though that you removed the two thin shims.  I have just been putting a chamfer on the pinion teeth and will post some pics. shortly.

Terry

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i woud have put the chamfer to across the tooth rather than laying back the front edge,

so when its fired fwd. the chamfer helps the lead in   if thats any sense 

the other thing is the motor should not power up until the solenoid has ended its stroke and the pinion is fully engaged 

if its firing when the pinion is jammed against the ring gear theres something odd going on 

a few  thou,  shims shouldnt cause havoc.when the engagement is nearer 3/4"  

the shims are to adjust for any over stroke,  and youre not getting that far 

pete

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Terry, have you checked the ring gear all the way round? Just wondering if it's missing a couple of teeth in one spot, as the engine will only stop in one of two spots depending on how many revs it was doing when turned off. You could with a worn gear push the car in gear to move the flywheel to a good spot.

Tony.

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Tony, I saw your post after I had reinstalled the starter so was unable to check the flywheel ring gear.

Refitted without the two shims and on first turn of key (HT lead removed) - screech...... oh b*gg*r!  But every turn of the key since has been OK, around half a dozen times.

Having been an intermittent problem I will just have to see how it goes but thanks to all for your help.

Terry

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Hi Terry, if it starts doing it again? put the car in top gear and push it forward about 8inches, that will move the flywheel to a different spot and then try it. (after taking it out of gear) if that cures it, you will know where the problem lies :) 

Tony.

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