Vitesse Mk2 turns over a long time before starting?

[Pete Lewis]

thats a plan 

pete

[Iain T]

Barry

I have the same problem on my mk2, I fitted a Huco low pressure electric fuel pump but didn't make any difference. I also fitted Pertronix Ignitor 2 ignition and had the car rolling road tuned. I'm still scratching my head as to what the cause is! It must be down to sumfink in the carbs or the idiot behind the wheel! If I get to the root of the problem I'll let you know.

Iain

[Pete Lewis]

 apart from low fuel in the carb floats / lousy pumps, leaky fuel lines sucking air

cold starting does need a correct charge of air fuel ,to a rich mixture , this has to be drawn into the manifold and into the cylinders

if the choke is not supplying the enriched mix it can take a while to get it into the combustion chamber and have it actually decide to fire up

the long cranking is a sign this is not quite right.as it tries to build up a charge

this happened a lot in early days of emission weakening of mixtures 

conversly too rich has the same effect and you get a manifold over fueled,  not so much with stroms/Su as there is no manifold drain   like on a downdraft

less to go wrong with a CD thames barrier choke, a CDS with a starting valve and piped feed to the rear needs the choke disc to be clean and free of corrosion

CDSE needs the temp compensators to be SHUT at normal temperatures and when cold 

food for thought 

Pete

 

 

[Iain T]

Ta Pete, I'll have a look at choke disc.

Iain

[Iain T]

First off Barry, sorry to barge in on your thread but it may benefit both of us.

Hi Pete and all you other techy types out there, I have taken off and stripped the choke mechanism on my 150 CDS's? The disc with the slot and small holes, some of which are blocked, can be fitted either way onto the D shaft. It seems this may be crucial looking at the mating part. Also what are the two brass disc assemblies? They seem ok and not a service item? I have some carburettor cleaner but to remove surface crud can I use a fine wet and dry on the discs etc?

As always your help is greatly appreciated.

Iain

[Pete Lewis]

they are simple poppet plate valves   to control fuel flow in just one way

the knurled screw thing is a summer/ winter choke stop , push and turn to alter from part or full choke , ( not often seen on triumphs )

so if on a summer setting wont help on a cold day 

Pete

[Steve P]

I had the same problem on my Vitesse,mine has twin HS6 carbs and a Silver top electric pump.

It was down to knackered fuel rubber pipes which was not apparent from the outside,soft and squidgy and allowing air in.Fitted Gates Barricade throughout and it`s ok.

Steve

[Iain T]

Thanks,

Is there a correct assembly orientation for the discs? The disc with the holes can be assembled both ways onto the D washer so the holes would be different in relation to the other disc with the radial bar. I can't trust the current assembly I have as it could be wrong. I will clean and ensure the assembly rotates before re-assembling. The summer/winter screw has a pin in it so it can't be adjusted (see pic above), I could take it out so I have the option to use it.

Iain

[Pete Lewis]

without checking the choke starts with the small holes and gets to the bigger the more choke is demanded

the knurled screw?  does move you have to push or pull  to disengage the pin to enable rotation it should have a spring under its head to keep its position 

give it a push and 1/4 turn so it changes the cam end stop position .

Pete

[Iain T]

I'm a plonker, yes you just have to push the screw and twist!

It's the correct orientation, or in my case incorrect assembly of the discs that may be causing the poor starting. I'll have another look on the interweb but can't see anything to give me a blow by blow this is how to assemble video of the CDS choke. I'll are another look and see if I can suss it out......

Iain

[bfashbolt]

Thanks guys for the great advice and reassurances! You really are a fab bunch!! I feel a lot better about this now, I'll try a fuel filter and I'll check the pump lever for the position before I prime and I won't worry about turning over until it starts, no throttle until it fires, check the fuel pipes and give it enough choke!

 

Hi again all, update time! Well, after a dead battery (replaced) a jammed knackered starter (replaced) and a visit from my local mobile classic car specialist (not cheap but we'll worth it for his 50 years plus experience!) we have a still slow to start but now running Vitesse!! The chap who got me going again (George Reid) identified a timing error of 10 degrees and an issue with the choke block on the Stromberg's - IainT thread has been helpful, wondering now if I have a mis-assembled choke block? Also he set screw to winter setting☺ 

So with the new battery, working starter instead of a solenoid 'click', adjusted timing, confirmed fuel supply, winter choke setting, plus a new coil for good measure, we have a slightly reluctant to start but running Vitesse! The mobile classics guy says he might be able to get a choke block, said he might have one in his parts shed, but I will mention to him the point made by IainT about choke block assembly.

Thanks all

Barry

 

[Iain T]

Barry, I agree this forum is like having a host of experts 'at elbow' certainly helped me. I found the flat on the choke shaft has to be pointing down (toward the lever) and the slot in the disc is at 10 o/c. I found my disc was not mating correctly to the adjacent body and leaked so lapped it in with 1500 grit wet and dry. It also seems important to set the fast idle correctly, when the choke is fully pulled out revs should be 1300/1500 Max. At this setting it then rotates the disc enough to let fuel through the slot and the graduated holes to enrich the carbs. If the fast idle screw is out too much the lever just rotates the throttle spindles but the slot isn't in line with the fuel hole in the mating body so no or minimal enrichment IE only half the designed function and a lot of cranking!

Have fun and never fool yourself you've almost finished your to do list...

[bfashbolt]

ByThanks guys for the great advice and reassurances! You really are a fab bunch!! I feel a lot better about this now, I'll try a fuel filter and I'll check the pump lever for the position before I prime and I won't worry about turning over until it starts, no throttle until it fires, check the fuel pipes and give it enough choke!

 

Hi again all, update time! Well, after a dead battery (replaced) a jammed knackered starter (replaced) and a visit from my local mobile classic car specialist (not cheap but we'll worth it for his 50 years plus experience!) we have a still slow to start but now running Vitesse!! The chap who got me going again (George Reid) identified a timing error of 10 degrees and an issue with the choke block on the Stromberg's - IainT thread has been helpful, wondering now if I have a mis-assembled choke block? Also he set screw to winter setting☺ 

So with the new battery, working starter instead of a solenoid 'click', adjusted timing, confirmed fuel supply, winter choke setting, plus a new coil for good measure, we have a slightly reluctant to start but running Vitesse! The mobile classics guy says he might be able to get a choke block, said he might have one in his parts shed, but I will mention to him the point made by IainT about choke block assembly.

Thanks all

Barry

Thanks Iain, went into classic car ownership quite suddenly but with no illusions about the reality of keeping complex 50 year old machinery running! If any other members out there have any choke block advice or know where to get the parts it would be much appreciated. The mobile classic car guy said he would continue looking for a choke block - now he's worked on it I think he's adopted the carbs as his responsibility! He'll still charge me though😉

[Pete Lewis]

Burlen list all these   eg http://zenithcarb.co.uk/carbspec/carburettor/spares/id/4042/

Pete

[bfashbolt]

ByThanks guys for the great advice and reassurances! You really are a fab bunch!! I feel a lot better about this now, I'll try a fuel filter and I'll check the pump lever for the position before I prime and I won't worry about turning over until it starts, no throttle until it fires, check the fuel pipes and give it enough choke!

 

Hi again all, update time! Well, after a dead battery (replaced) a jammed knackered starter (replaced) and a visit from my local mobile classic car specialist (not cheap but we'll worth it for his 50 years plus experience!) we have a still slow to start but now running Vitesse!! The chap who got me going again (George Reid) identified a timing error of 10 degrees and an issue with the choke block on the Stromberg's - IainT thread has been helpful, wondering now if I have a mis-assembled choke block? Also he set screw to winter setting☺ 

So with the new battery, working starter instead of a solenoid 'click', adjusted timing, confirmed fuel supply, winter choke setting, plus a new coil for good measure, we have a slightly reluctant to start but running Vitesse! The mobile classics guy says he might be able to get a choke block, said he might have one in his parts shed, but I will mention to him the point made by IainT about choke block assembly.

Thanks all

Barry

Thanks Iain, went into classic car ownership quite suddenly but with no illusions about the reality of keeping complex 50 year old machinery running! If any other members out there have any choke block advice or know where to get the parts it would be much appreciated. The mobile classic car guy said he would continue looking for a choke block - now he's worked on it I think he's adopted the carbs as his responsibility! He'll still charge me though😉

Thanks Pete, I'll check them out!

[Iain T]

The choke outer body assembly at Burlen part number B19203 is £52.94 but the guy didn't know if the two discs where included, he doubted they did. However this is a new assembly so the brass shaft should be a close fit in the body's bearing. Therefore this would reduce to a minimum  the side movement on the shaft created by the return spring. My thinking is as the return spring is pretty strong if there is excessive wear in the shaft/bearing this could tilt the shaft and thereby the disc so that that it doesn't mate correctly with the adjacent part and leak. As far as I can see it is only the small internal spring that pushes the disc against the mating part that stops fuel from leaking and this internal coil spring isn't strong enough to overcome the more powerful side load from the return spring.

Or all the above could be a load of poop as the tolerance between the discs and shaft could be enough to compensate for any wear in the shaft/body bearing..??? All I know is this mechanism wasn't designed by NASA!

I'm trying out Wellseal on the outer body sealing surface as there isn't a gasket then go from there.

Iain

[Pete Lewis]

well when their website behaves  it shows and states  'complete assy '

strange that to find it you have to go through the GT6 listing sorry my earlier link doesnt work apart from their xmas message

if the return spring is thought excessive  can you reduce or delete and add a return  spring  to the cable end  as a trial 

Pete

[Iain T]

Agree it should be the complete assembly as the two discs are kept in place by peening over the end of the brass shaft, I think I just asked the wrong person. With the return spring as above it is a tidy assembly and am loath to make it messy.

I've had the car for nearly 3 years and last week was the first time it started correctly, ticked over and now the horrid vibrations (many causes) has been sorted I could actually push it in anger. I thoroughly enjoyed it!

Next on the list is make a better ducting system for the carbs by adapting a standard box with a centre feed then ducted to the side of the rad? I have K&N's on but I need cooler air when I get stuck in the inevitable traffic jams. Plus the brakes have no feel whatsoever so if M1144's aren't fitted I'll be buying from the TSSC shop.

Iain

[Pete Lewis]

pancakes  .. a must have that is sure to bring problems 

i would give the brakes an Italian tune up   do 60 to 20   x3 times without stopping  they may just need re bedding to shift the rust on the braking surface of the pads 

if you fit 1144 you must do a bedding in proceedure . ive got it on here somewhere  think its 70 to 20 x 3 hard stops/ make em work  

pete

[bfashbolt]

By the wayByThanks guys for the great advice and reassurances! You really are a fab bunch!! I feel a lot better about this now, I'll try a fuel filter and I'll check the pump lever for the position before I prime and I won't worry about turning over until it starts, no throttle until it fires, check the fuel pipes and give it enough choke!

 

Hi again all, update time! Well, after a dead battery (replaced) a jammed knackered starter (replaced) and a visit from my local mobile classic car specialist (not cheap but we'll worth it for his 50 years plus experience!) we have a still slow to start but now running Vitesse!! The chap who got me going again (George Reid) identified a timing error of 10 degrees and an issue with the choke block on the Stromberg's - IainT thread has been helpful, wondering now if I have a mis-assembled choke block? Also he set screw to winter setting☺ 

So with the new battery, working starter instead of a solenoid 'click', adjusted timing, confirmed fuel supply, winter choke setting, plus a new coil for good measure, we have a slightly reluctant to start but running Vitesse! The mobile classics guy says he might be able to get a choke block, said he might have one in his parts shed, but I will mention to him the point made by IainT about choke block assembly.

Thanks all

Barry

Thanks Iain, went into classic car ownership quite suddenly but with no illusions about the reality of keeping complex 50 year old machinery running! If any other members out there have any choke block advice or know where to get the parts it would be much appreciated. The mobile classic car guy said he would continue looking for a choke block - now he's worked on it I think he's adopted the carbs as his responsibility! He'll still charge me though😉

Thanks Pete, I'll check them out!

 

By the way, what is the TSSC opinion on ballasted coils? I understand they help with cold starting issue? 

[Pete Lewis]

vitesse never has ballasted coils   just spitfire and gt6   heck knows why 

they only help by giving a 6 v coil a 12v feed when cranking ,  helps boost the HT if you have a low battery state 

16 yrs of a hairy Vit6  never needed this , its an un necessary complication.

never mix and match   a ballast coil is 1.5ohms    a 12v is 3 ohms 

pete

 

 

[bfashbolt]

Hi all you frustrated lockdown classic Triumph owners! A piece of good news to come out of lockdown, my classic car mechanic guy (I know my limits) had my Vitesse during lockdown, long story short he was going to look at door/body alignment and the starting issue and the disappearing clutch pressure. While he had my Vitesse he stripped the carbs and rebuilt them, now it starts properly first time. He says there were loose parts internally following an earlier rebuild, tells me he could see screwdriver scratches on internal surfaces. So many things it could have been but good old diligence wins the day! Clutch now sorted, body alignment issues identified - chance of a new coated chassis.

He's now looking for an overdrive gearbox for me to completely enhance my post lockdown driving experience!

Thanks for all your help guys, happy post-lockdown Triumph driving!!

 

 

By the wayByThanks guys for the great advice and reassurances! You really are a fab bunch!! I feel a lot better about this now, I'll try a fuel filter and I'll check the pump lever for the position before I prime and I won't worry about turning over until it starts, no throttle until it fires, check the fuel pipes and give it enough choke!

 

Hi again all, update time! Well, after a dead battery (replaced) a jammed knackered starter (replaced) and a visit from my local mobile classic car specialist (not cheap but we'll worth it for his 50 years plus experience!) we have a still slow to start but now running Vitesse!! The chap who got me going again (George Reid) identified a timing error of 10 degrees and an issue with the choke block on the Stromberg's - IainT thread has been helpful, wondering now if I have a mis-assembled choke block? Also he set screw to winter setting☺ 

So with the new battery, working starter instead of a solenoid 'click', adjusted timing, confirmed fuel supply, winter choke setting, plus a new coil for good measure, we have a slightly reluctant to start but running Vitesse! The mobile classics guy says he might be able to get a choke block, said he might have one in his parts shed, but I will mention to him the point made by IainT about choke block assembly.

Thanks all

Barry

Thanks Iain, went into classic car ownership quite suddenly but with no illusions about the reality of keeping complex 50 year old machinery running! If any other members out there have any choke block advice or know where to get the parts it would be much appreciated. The mobile classic car guy said he would continue looking for a choke block - now he's worked on it I think he's adopted the carbs as his responsibility! He'll still charge me though😉

Thanks Pete, I'll check them out!

 

By the way, what is the TSSC opinion on ballasted coils? I understand they help with cold starting issue? 

[Pete Lewis]

vitesse has never had a ballast coil system .  yes the idea is you run a 1.5ohm coil via a resistor to drop the base 12v to 6-8 votls 

when you crank the solenoid feeds the coil with 12v whilst you crank up, really only  on a cold day with a poor battery state this idea gives the coil a 12v kick to increase the HT 

on a car in reasonable tune and a good battery  total waste of faffing about 

so my idea is leave well alone 

( note on the non ballast vitesse the  standard  12v  coil primery is 3ohms)

facing the choke discs on some fine wet dry normally resurects any problems .well makes it fairly  usable 

Pete

[Iain T]

Hi Barry 

Good to know the starting problem is solved! 

FYI I did buy the choke assembly which came complete with disc but only one set of holes so I swapped over for my old twin hole disc. I ended up with a complete engine rebuild (a bit of an extreme solution) and identified poorly fitted valves and incompatible camshaft plus others. Once sorted engine starts on the button, a complete transformation and to date no oil leaks! 

Iain 

[bfashbolt]

Hi Iain, I supposed a lot of people have had some more time with their classics lately, my mechanic chap had also bought a Vitesse with as sunroof so I'm starting to get tempted by that too!!

Implication is that a previous owner of my Vitesse returned the carbs but didn't reassemble very well, hence the importance of knowing where you have to stop. I do envy people who can rebuild engines and carbs etc.

 

Hi all you frustrated lockdown classic Triumph owners! A piece of good news to come out of lockdown, my classic car mechanic guy (I know my limits) had my Vitesse during lockdown, long story short he was going to look at door/body alignment and the starting issue and the disappearing clutch pressure. While he had my Vitesse he stripped the carbs and rebuilt them, now it starts properly first time. He says there were loose parts internally following an earlier rebuild, tells me he could see screwdriver scratches on internal surfaces. So many things it could have been but good old diligence wins the day! Clutch now sorted, body alignment issues identified - chance of a new coated chassis.

He's now looking for an overdrive gearbox for me to completely enhance my post lockdown driving experience!

Thanks for all your help guys, happy post-lockdown Triumph driving!!

 

 

By the wayByThanks guys for the great advice and reassurances! You really are a fab bunch!! I feel a lot better about this now, I'll try a fuel filter and I'll check the pump lever for the position before I prime and I won't worry about turning over until it starts, no throttle until it fires, check the fuel pipes and give it enough choke!

 

Hi again all, update time! Well, after a dead battery (replaced) a jammed knackered starter (replaced) and a visit from my local mobile classic car specialist (not cheap but we'll worth it for his 50 years plus experience!) we have a still slow to start but now running Vitesse!! The chap who got me going again (George Reid) identified a timing error of 10 degrees and an issue with the choke block on the Stromberg's - IainT thread has been helpful, wondering now if I have a mis-assembled choke block? Also he set screw to winter setting☺ 

So with the new battery, working starter instead of a solenoid 'click', adjusted timing, confirmed fuel supply, winter choke setting, plus a new coil for good measure, we have a slightly reluctant to start but running Vitesse! The mobile classics guy says he might be able to get a choke block, said he might have one in his parts shed, but I will mention to him the point made by IainT about choke block assembly.

Thanks all

Barry

Thanks Iain, went into classic car ownership quite suddenly but with no illusions about the reality of keeping complex 50 year old machinery running! If any other members out there have any choke block advice or know where to get the parts it would be much appreciated. The mobile classic car guy said he would continue looking for a choke block - now he's worked on it I think he's adopted the carbs as his responsibility! He'll still charge me though😉

Thanks Pete, I'll check them out!

 

By the way, what is the TSSC opinion on ballasted coils? I understand they help with cold starting issue?