Vitesse Mk2 turns over a long time before starting?

[bfashbolt]

Well my Vitesse ownership learning curve continues to climb steeply!! After steering questions, bonnet cone issues we now have a long time turning over before it starts question. Am I doing it wrong? Is there a knack? The car is unfortunately out in the coldest the minute. 

I turn the key with the choke out, the engine turns, splutters but doesn't start. Then I have the engine cranking on the key but no attempt to fire, then there will be a brief 'catch' followed by a bit of a fire up but at low revs (5000) - if I'm quick I can catch the revs and away we go. Don't get me wrong it starts but in its own time, no rhyme nor reason either- sometimes quite quick to start, other times not so. I do the fuel pump priming as advised by the seller, especially if it has stood for a few days. 

Of course this might be totally the wrong forum, it could equally be an ignition issue? Electronic ignition and alternator though so not sure, really feels like fuel isn't getting through?

Barry, proud owner of MEX 322H Vitesse Mk2 Saloon

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, bfashbolt said:

I do the fuel pump priming as advised by the seller, especially if it has stood for a few days. 

Hello Barry,

I think you may have answered your own question indirectly - the fuel pump.

If you need to prime every few days then that says to me that the pump is unable to maintain pressure and as such this will have a bearing on your start-up.

I'd replace the pump or rebuild, depending upon your favoured route to deal with this; you certainly need to do this before searching another cause - deal with one issue at a time otherwise you will not know which is good or problematic.

When starting my Vitesse, the choke is 2/3 out with foot OFF the gas pedal and the clutch NOT depressed. When the car catches, normally straight away the gas pedal comes in to action. Many people depress the gas pedal slightly on start-up, you should not need to do this but if it assists - carry on.

The obvious question is when were the carbs last tuned and balanced - this will also cause starting issues if not correct.

Good luck.

Richard.

[Bfg]

Barry,

Just a thought, as I don't have a six..  but the inlet manifolds on the Vitesse is a big convoluted aluminium casting with cold water running through it, and then a blinking great big heat sink of an cylinder head and block.   So I'm wondering if your starting issue at this time of year is not one of the fuel condensating before it gets into the combustion chamber.?    How fast is the engine spinning over ?   And how well does she start when the engine is warm ?

Pete.

[johny]

I find my Vitesse needs very little choke (depending on the ambient temperature of course) so have adjusted the operating cam to give a large throttle opening relative to the choke. Then when starting I pull out the choke only a little, dont touch the accelerator pedal and it starts straight onto a fast idle. It needs a bit of experience because Im paranoid about excessive revs on start up damaging the bearings before the oil pressure builds so aim to keep them from exceeding 1500rpm and then immediately reduce the choke setting.

Is it possible youre applying too much choke as an excessively rich mixture will cause a struggling start and certainly if youre getting 5000rpm that is too much!

[bfashbolt]

Thanks Richard, the pump was rapidly becoming the prime suspect (no pun intended ☺) the advice re starting methods is good, thanks again. The carbs were balanced before I took ownership but it really does feel like a fuel issue as there is no attempt to fire during the process.

Is it easy to fit a new pump? They are available from the usual sources.

Barry

[Guest]

Hello Barry,

Super simple to replace and ensure you have the correct fuel pump gasket - usual suspects supply. If going to the NEC, Rimmer will deliver FOC and price match with Canley Classics; the latter is always my first choice.

One word of warning make sure the pump arm is located above the camshaft, if positioned underneath is will break. The way to ensure it is fitted correctly is to have the pump arm at the very top of the hole in the engine block. You then need to push the body of the pump downwards in order to locate the 2x studs which it fits on to. When doing this you will / should feel resistance, if you do the pump is positioned correctly.

Regards.

Richard.

[bfashbolt]

First of all, sorry re revs comment - meant it runs a little unevenly at 500 rpm not 5000!! Thanks Jonny for choke advice. In answer to Bfg re engine spin, starts off fairly fast, (I have a trickle cellar charger attached when it's standing at home) then it turns slowly then I'll get a splutter, then it might go back to turning or it will catch and run at about 500rpm until I rev it on the throttle. At the moment the battery is good enough to keep going until it catches, the whole process is usually 5 minutes of so.

 

[bfashbolt]

Solar charger not cellar charger - damn auto-correct!

[Pete Lewis]

a mk 2 should have stromberg CDS thats one starting valve on the front carb with a short  hose feeding the rear carb when on choke

theres little to go wrong, but the fueling disc inside can get corroded and clogged , just remove the screws and have a look see

do check the short hose frome the tank suction tube o the bundy feed pipe in the boot is not old and loose allows it to suck air and cause some drain back

if you have a pump with a prime lever it will only give a good pump when the lever is on the back of the cam so if it feels a bit feeble turn the engine 1/2  a turn to get a full stroke

even if the pump valves drain fuel back there should be enough fuel level in the cabs to fire up ok, it can evaporate as the float chamber is open vented

do check when pulling the choke control that the starting valve is actually fully opening

Pete

 

[johny]

Hmmm 500rpm is low so maybe you need more choke rev setting relative to the mixture?

Id be surprised if your problem is down to the pump because this normally shows up when driving, especially at higher loads, when a weak pump cant keep up with the fuel demand. It would have to be really bad to not even be able to fill the carb float chambers before starting....

[bfashbolt]

Solar charger not cellar charger - damn auto-correct!

The 500rpm thing is not normal tick-over, usually just around 1000rpm when warned up - the 500rpm happens after turning over for a while and it sort of tries to start, if it doesn't catch when I blip the throttle we go back to turning over with nothing happening.

[johny]

Does it smell of fuel while the churning is going on? I think a compression check would be useful and of course with any new ownership I like to check all adjustments including valve clearances, igntion timing and points (if fitted)....  

[bfashbolt]

Thanks Pete, I didn't know the fuel pump lever was camshaft position dependant when you prime it! Good advice thanks, that fits with a recent time when I primed the pump and it started quite quickly. 

Jonny, slight smell of fuel when turning over, engine in good order when running. Previous owner appears to have looked after the engine properly.

[bfashbolt]

ByThanks Pete, I didn't know the fuel pump lever was camshaft position dependant when you prime it! Good advice thanks, that fits with a recent time when I primed the pump and it started quite quickly. 

Jonny, slight smell of fuel when turning over, engine in good order when running. Previous owner appears to have looked after the engine properly.

Re pump issue revealing itself under load Jonny, no issues at normal acceleration/speeds, at motorway speed 70mph @ slightly under 4400rpm there is sometimes a slight hesitation which clears when I lift off the throttle briefly. Could be carbs needing a little attention?

Given that fuel pumps are not too expensive I might try a replacement? Sounds like it should be a fairly quick replacement job? Not too complex according to Pete.

Thanks all

 

 

[dougbgt6]

Barry,

Refurb kits aren't too expensive and easy to fit. Sounds like it's just drain back. What/where is that building behind your beloved? Art Deco init?

Diug

[Pete Lewis]

have you checked the hose off the top of the tank yet  notorious nasty bit of old hose is normal 

if you get paranoid about drain back fit a low pressure electric pump so it primes as soon as switched on 

no more than 2.5 psi or you gain lots of flooding problems 

pete

[Gully]

If it's fine at higher revs, I wouldn't have thought the pump was to blame - before pitching in and changing things I'd have a look at the choke arrangements on the carbs. When I first had my GT6 I had to adjust the throttle cam to get satisfactory starting as there was insufficient throttle for the rich mixture for it to catch cleanly.

Gully

[daverclasper]

5 hours ago, Gully said:

I had to adjust the throttle cam to get satisfactory starting as there was insufficient throttle for the rich mixture for it to catch cleanly.

The throttle cam can wear. I filed down the cam (while in situ) to give a keener angle and then backed out the adjusting screw. This helped with mine.

Dave

[bfashbolt]

Thanks dougbgt6, the building in the picture is the Midland Hotel Morecambe, superb isn't it? Restored to glory a few years back, not cheap to stay but what a view of Morecambe Bay and the Lake District!

Is there a cure for the dreaded drain/flow back? You can get non-return valves can't you?

Pete, yes the car had been stood a little before I took ownership. I will have a look at the fuel pipes this weekend. Where do you fit an electric fuel pump?

Gully, the carbs are going to get checked over soon, and yes I thought the fuel pump might be OK as it runs well after starting. Just doesn't seem to want to get going, the priming idea is good as I didn't know it was dependent on where the camshaft was sitting.

[bfashbolt]

Sorry if any delay in replying, when it rains in my part of GrimUpNorth the broadband goes down (the hamsters lose grip ont the treadmill😉) all your responses are good information for me. 

So, any thoughts on how to tackle fuel drain/flow back?

I'm going to see if there are options for this before we move on, as I said when my Vitesse is running there is no misfire, no hesitation just keeps going, so as a new'ish classic car owner (I owned an identical Vitesse in the 70s before it was a classic!) I really want to try and understand these issues and approach them logically and sequentially.

Barry

[johny]

With the priming you can usually feel and hear if its doing anything. Initially the lever should have a bit more resistance and you might hear the fuel sloshing into the float chambers then as they fill and the float valves close the lever goes slacker as its not doing any work. If as Pete says the pump is sitting on the cam the hand lever will be slack from the start....

[dougbgt6]

Barry,

A fuel filter id a good cheap up grade, best place to put it is just before the fuel pump, catches all the crude AND you can see activity as you prime the pump. 

Drain back is due to the failure off the pump internals, the membrane can't hold back the force of gravity. Even after instillation of a refurb kit it can happen. I don't have it day to day, but after a couple of weeks lay off I know I need half a dozen pumps on the lever.

Doug

[Pete Lewis]

dont get paranoid about this its not really a major problem,   so you have to crank it a while it wont hurt

my vit6 had no springs left in the plate valves  so cut down from a ball pen and popped them in the valve ,  that worked better

its worth remove the pump and sit at the dinning table and visually have a good look , then you can discount the pump

and  as said   the hoses  all for the whole system and pipe unions must be sound and not allowing any air sucking which can occor without petrol leaking .

pete

[Colin Lindsay]

On 05/11/2019 at 20:25, bfashbolt said:

Is it easy to fit a new pump? They are available from the usual sources.

Barry

One thing you might be interested in, if you can find any - look for a glass-topped pump, the Delco variety. They come up for sale from time to time online or at shows, and can be very easily cleaned or refurbished as they screw apart however: you can see the fuel in the glass so you'll know there actually is any, you can see any particles that may cause bother if they reach the carbs, plus if there are any leaks back along the line you'll see the bubbles too. It's one of the first things I fitted to my GT6 and after a few months of standing idle I can see if there's fuel (there usually is) or if it's even slightly low, use the priming lever to fuel the carbs before starting.

 

[bfashbolt]

Thanks guys for the great advice and reassurances! You really are a fab bunch!! I feel a lot better about this now, I'll try a fuel filter and I'll check the pump lever for the position before I prime and I won't worry about turning over until it starts, no throttle until it fires, check the fuel pipes and give it enough choke!