1964 Spitfire 4

[NonMember]

1 hour ago, Neil Clark said:

 I have no idea which Vitesse box is fitted - do they even differ from 1.6 to 2.0 litre Vitesse?

Yes. The 1600 Vitesse had a 3-synchro box very similar to the roundtail Spitfires. The 2L got synchro on first. If you can see the number stamped on the top flange of the casing then someone will tell you what that gearbox (at least the casing!) was originally built for.

[JumpingFrog]

From your photos of the rebuild, your gearbox looks correct, e.g. small square output flange (5/16 holes), consistent with early Spitfire/Herald 3-sync. Any Vitesse gearbox will not fit a 4-cylinder engine, the input shaft is different.

I suspect your diff has been changed, such that it has a round pinion flange with 3/8 holes, the photos from earlier in the thread appear to show the larger output flanges (also 3/8 holes). It will be either a 3.63 or a 3.89, which will explain the speedo under reading (~5% off from 3.89 or ~12% for a 3.63), the standard ratio was 4.11.

Probably your garage had the problem that the gearbox end had 5/16 holes, and diff end had 3/8 holes. The flanges can simply be swapped over, and the UJs are identical. But could throw the prop balance off so I would question if its worth it.

[Pete Lewis]

there is no way a vitesse box will fit the 4 cyl engine   you may have a later mk4 4 synchro box fitted as said we need the numbers on the top face of the case , 

but that wont solve much as the cases are all the same do you have a crash 1st gear  or it has synchromesh on 1st ????

you can build vitess ratios into a 4cyl box if you like the idea of the ratio's 

the input shafts and bell hsgs and clutch are totally different 

Pete

 

[Neil Clark]

There are these numbers on the casing.  Do these photos help to identify it?  I know they are rotated but can't get them clearer.  I can't quite read the numbers and don't fancy stripping out the interior and tunnel again!

[Neil Clark]

I have a crash first gear.  Here is the diff.

[Pete Lewis]

 

to grease the  UJ & telescope from   the underside  it has to be fitted to the rear 

still leaves one uj at the front which needs the tunnel out to access thats assuming it has a greaser fitted 

or you need a loooong gun nozzle and a lot of faffing about through the exhaust and chassis 

Pete

[Pete Lewis]

crash  1st gear make you wonder what on earth made them think it has any links to a vitesse gearbox .....

is there some clues missing ??? 

next time you have the tunnel out have alook at the gearbox number 

Pete

 

[NonMember]

42 minutes ago, Neil Clark said:

There are these numbers on the casing.

The number we need is the one that is stamped on the face I've arrowed:

[Neil Clark]

I might be able to avoid getting the tunnel out and see it with a flexi camera.

[JumpingFrog]

Diff is definitely not the standard one, explains your speedometer not reading correctly. Exact ratio best ascertained by holding one output still and counting turns of input to output. Nothing you can really do other than change the speedometer for one with the right TPM (turns per mile). Later diff is if anything an upgrade, stronger and more relaxed for motorways etc. Original 4.11 is quite short.

Highly doubt your gearbox is Vitesse, unless someone has gone to a lot of effort to shorten the input shaft on an early Vitesse 1600 'box.

By the way, that return spring on the clutch release arm is some kind of bodge, looks inspired by what the early Heralds had, does the clutch work okay? It shouldn't require such a contraption unless something is wrong.

I still see no reason to flip the prop round and risk unbalancing it by swapping flanges over? Most I've seen have the splines fitted at the back.

[Neil Clark]

I'm going to check the TPM first - once the rain stops.

[Pete Lewis]

that slave spring is completely wrong and should be removed  

the slave has a spring inside to keep the throwout in contact with the clutch not the other way round  

to find your TPM of the car 

old school method

disconnect speedo cable  and fit card needle to the inner

measure 52.8ft down the road 

drive/push car exactly thet distance and count the needle turns and part turn

x the needle count  turns by 100  thats the TPM of the car 

Pete

 

[Neil Clark]

Still catching up with all of your knowledge!  The clutch is fine so I'm not going to change what is there until I need to.  I tried to get the number you mention Rob but just couldn't find anything discernible with a highlight lens.  Do either of these photos help to identify the gearbox?  Looking closely today, I think the bell housing could have been "new" for the 2017 restoration, in fact it must be, it's just not dirty.  While the engine is the original number could the gearbox be from another car?  By the way, this was the damaged chassis!

[Pete Lewis]

that only shows its a 3 rail non overdrive box of some sort 

the number should be on the exposed face of the top of the main case 

starts with two letters  then a number    its the letters that identify 

Pete

[Neil Clark]

Pete, there are no numbers on my casing in the area indicated on the top face, either side, such as arrowed in Rob's photo from last Wednesday.

[Josef]

Then whoever is claiming it is a Vitesse gearbox is making stuff up   The only thing that would externally mark it as a Vitesse one is the prefix to the casing serial number that you are missing. Presumably it’s been skimmed off at some point. The only way to tell if your gear ratios are ‘wrong’ would be to open it and start counting gear teeth. The early Spit/Herald three rail boxes have a smaller output flange than the Vitesse. Though that may not be true for a 1600 box? Regardless, if it drives to your liking then it doesn’t matter what the gearbox is or where it came from!

[foshi]

the 1600 does have the small output flange, box will not fit though 

[Neil Clark]

14 hours ago, Josef said:

Then whoever is claiming it is a Vitesse gearbox is making stuff up   The only thing that would externally mark it as a Vitesse one is the prefix to the casing serial number that you are missing. Presumably it’s been skimmed off at some point. The only way to tell if your gear ratios are ‘wrong’ would be to open it and start counting gear teeth. The early Spit/Herald three rail boxes have a smaller output flange than the Vitesse. Though that may not be true for a 1600 box? Regardless, if it drives to your liking then it doesn’t matter what the gearbox is or where it came from!

Turned out that the guy who made the assertion about the Vitesse gearbox and said that the prop shaft was the wrong way was a day hire at the garage to help their workload, said he was a retired employee of one of the long established restorers.  I won't let him near the car again!

The full time people at the garage have tuned it and it drives well so far.  I'm just going to enjoy it for a while but thank you all for taking the time to talk me through it.

[Neil Clark]

I got the car into a good place but now the rent for the garages round here is going up by a huge amount.  I can't afford two classics so I'm afraid to say, and probably will regret, I've sold the Spitfire which was driving really nicely.  It's gone to a good home in a family of real enthusiasts.  But will I be allowed at the Duxford Triumph day now in the MG?

[Pete Lewis]

Neil

if duxford actually send out a booking form and dont give us more hoop and hurdles to jump  any classic is welcome 10th september 

keep watching the adverts 

Pete

 

[Neil Clark]

Thanks Pete!😊