Engine weight

[rogerguzzi]

Hello All

            I am going to rebuild a Spitfire 1500 engine and I am getting to old to fight it around the floor so I was thinking of getting an engine stand but what weight capacity do i need?

 

would this do

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ENGINE-STAND-VEHICLE-TRANSMISSION-STAND-750-LBS-/311426738389?hash=item48827ae8d5

 

 

or this

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ENGINE-STAND-VEHICLE-TRANSMISSION-STAND-1000-LBS-/311426739510?hash=item48827aed36

 

or even this

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Heavy-Duty-Swivel-Transmission-Gearbox-Engine-Support-Stand-1000-lbs-450kg-New-/201406785249?hash=item2ee4c7a6e1

 

I think I like the 4 wheel type

 

Roger

[John Bonnett]

Hi Roger, from memory I think the Spitfire engine weighs about 120kg so now worries with any of those. Amazing value. I couldn't buy the materials for twenty nine pounds let alone make one for the money.

 

regards

 

John

[rogerguzzi]

Hello John

                 I have ordered this one as the bracing at the bottom looked better.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171395329773?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Roger

 

ps should save the old back and knees and I can always sell it on for half price if not needed again

[John Bonnett]

Hello John

                 I have ordered this one as the bracing at the bottom looked better.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171395329773?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

 

Roger

 

ps should save the old back and knees and I can always sell it on for half price if not needed again

I'm sure that'll do the business Roger. 

 

Keep us posted on you engine build. Will it be standard or are you going for upgrades?

[Pete Lewis]

Dont forget if you get back problems theres the

Old age post to add diatribe solutions for back ache

 

good choice with the trolley

 

pete

[rogerguzzi]

Hello John

                I am going to upgrade a bit

 

 

Balancing, fast road cam (not sure which yet? Newman one seems to get good feed back, drill the center oil feed out to 5/16", baffle the sump?

 

I already have 4 into 2 into 1 exhaust, Megajolt ignition,thermostatically controlled oil cooler, full width radiator and 2 x 9" fans controlled by double switch sensor in bottom of radiator(83/78 and 88/82) K&N's,hard valve seats, cleaned up ports head and manifold.

 

What do we think of these bearings? seem good and price.

 

http://www.thewedgeshopstore.com/bearings-tri-metal-hd-mains-spitfire-1971-80-midget-1500/

 

has anyone dealt with them?

 

What about pistons? any recommendations?

 

Any better inlet manifolds for SU's ?

 

Roger

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Pete

                I know of the old codgers forum but I am only 70 so to young to join

I am getting the engine stand as I find getting down is ok its getting back up every time I forget the correct spanner which in most times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Roger

[JohnD]

If you can, use an old engine back plate between block and stand.

Or, buy some 1/4" plate and drill it to take the bolts into the block - your exiting back plate will provide the pattern.

Then drill to take the stand bolts, so that they can be as wide apart as possible, holding the engine more stably.

And cut a big hole in the middle, so that you can fit the rear crank oil seal housing.

 

Here's my old back plate, painted red, so I never use it by mistake for new engine build!

John

 

[rogerguzzi]

Hello John

                 That looks a good idea I will have a look through all my parts(junk)

 

Do you know of a good engine balancer in the midlands?

 

roger

[JohnD]

No, I'm NorthWest;  surely someone here can tell you.

 

How far do you want to take the balancing?  The usual is the crank and flywheel with clutch housing.

But if you want a high revver, and good practice anyway, the pistons and con rods too, not by putting them in the balancer, but by equalising their weight.

And for the really retentive, balance the conrods, end for end, so that all the small ends weight the same, and ditto the big ends.

And polishing then shot-peening the rods.

 

Hang on, you have a 1500 - they don't rev, and more than a 2.5 can - stroke puts too much strain on the rods.

Have you read Calum Douglas' work on Building a Reliable Spitfire Engine for High Performance ?

See: http://www.totallytriumph.net/spitfire/engine_building.shtml

 

John

[rogerguzzi]

Hello John

                Yes I have read that article, will have the crank and flywheel balanced and I will do the pistons and rods myself(its not rocket science)perhaps not end to end.

 

I found a local firm that quoted £180 to balance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and £120 to grind!!!!!

I phoned Rob Walker and crank and flywheel £80 much more like it and £12 per journal to grind and polish.

 

So more like £ 160/170 for both.

 

Roger

[JohnD]

Well, doing the conrods is all hand work and time consuming, whereas the grind doesn't take that long, although it's highly skilled, on a rather expensive machine, but one that can do thousands of cranks before it needs major work itself.  A compressor and die grinder helps the rod work.

If you want to get them shot peened, I send mine away to the Metal Improvement Company http://www.metalimprovement.co.uk/controlled-shot-peening.html?gclid=CLOGxe_Is8cCFSLkwgodwaQGWA

 

 

John

[Clive]

 few years ago I refreshed the 1300 engine in my herald. Took apart the spare engine with a rather knackered crank, and discovered both engines had std sized pistons. I chose the best block and best head, cam etc (kept macthing followers) and started weihing the rods and pistons. Out of the 8 pistons one was an odd make, no idea why, but the rest were pretty close in weight. I used the wifes digital scales, so accurate to within 1g.

Then weighed all the conrods. With little effort I got a set of 4 pistons and rods that were overall within a gram. 

Assembled the engine after a bore hone, and new bearings. Built an oilpump with the best possible tolerances. That engine was brilliant, got throughly thrashed doing lots of competitive events (it was known as "the shed" by the local motor club) including being lent out for a few autosolos to a friend and his daughter. 

My point is that a well thought out and prepared engine is always going to be that bit better than one that is just put together with so many assumptions. Indeed I did have a fully balanced 1500 in my Toledo for a while, but sadly Goodwood got the better of it, so please make sure you fit an oil cooler AND use decent oil. I found Millers CSS 20/60 to be way ahead of VR1, which was better than just about all the other 20/50 oils I had tried. Took me 3 crankshafts to get to that point. (car now has a slant 4 engine from an 1850, hopefully it will be a little more robust once it is on the road)

[JohnD]

To ease my own wife's anguish at my using her kitchen scales, I bought my own - and was amazed at the choice on offer and the very low prices.

Until I realised why they are so plentiful.

What else weighs down to a gram and is widely on sale?

Yup.  You are buying into the cocaine trade.

Ironic, isn't it?

 

John

[rogerguzzi]

Hello John & Clive

I have a set of digital scales I bought for weighing ebay stuff to be postd and drugs(green tea,chocolate biscuits etc)

I have an oil cooler fitted with thermostat and I use the 20/60 oil.

I have weighed the pistons and rods and they are pretty close.

I have all winter to get it done.

At the moment I am fighting my brother in laws TR6 differential! I have got one output flange off and left the other under the hydraulic press for the night? just got to make a case spreader now.

Do you think I should tell him its my first complete stripping of a differential for years?

 

Roger

[Clive]

Only after he has bought you tea and biscuits.

John, I believe the vast majority of kitchen scales are left in kitchen cupboards, drug dealers seem to use very specific scales. Digital scales are cheap and pretty accurate. I still prefer teh balance type for making a spnge cake though, that way all the ingredients weigh the same as the eggs (that is the important bit!)

[JohnD]

Hello, I'm Clive and I'm a sponge cake addict.

Hello, Clive, welcome to Spongeaholics Anonymous.  What you say here, stays here.

Share with us Clive, how did it start?  Was it Victoria, Chocolate, Vanilla, Madeira, Lemon Drizzle? They're the gateway cakes.

[Clive]

Nah, it all started when I got a phonecall from a school asking if I fancied a term teaching cooking. How hard can it be? in fact it was probably the most fun teaching I have had, I learnt loads from a dear lady who was the "technician." I even mastered choux pastries, but not done much/any recently.

However, who doesn't like cakes. Lemon drizzle is always a favorite, though a decent Victoria sponge is a very close second.

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Both

                Now we on to cake this what I had on Sunday

 

And my present to me arrived today, I am not sure whether to replace the bolts as they are only 4.8's or at least the 4 on the arms and the one at bottom of main upright?

 

What do we think? or am I being over cautious? they are all 12mm

 

But I agree you could not buy the steel for this price yet alone how many hours it would take to make!!

[JohnD]

A 12mm bolts is a hefty one. but as 8.8s are readily available, that's what I'd prefer.

 

John

[rogerguzzi]

Hello John

                that's what I thought, I always think of 4.8 as mild steel grade ok for non stressed items.

 

I have ordered some 8.8 I thought the 12.9's were a bit over the top!

 

Roger

 

now if I could just get the output flange off the shaft(my press is starting to bow !!!!) may have to go to a engineering place(that goes against the grain)

 

Its off a bit of heat 8 to 10 tons pressure and a thump? (It da arf go with a BIG bang) very satisfying but then I am easily pleased!

[rogerguzzi]

Hello Gents

                  I am still pondering over this spare engine.

 

My thoughts so far are Crank grind and polish plus tri metal shells for both crank and big ends.

Fit camshaft bushes to block and go for a fast road cam (I am favoring the Newman one and tappets.)

Crank etc balance.

Drill out the center oil way to 5/16"

Duplex timing chain set(which I have acquired for £30, both wheels ,chain,seal,tensioner )

Block skim and hone as there is only about 0.001 to 0.002" wear at the top.

New set of rings(not sure which ones yet)

 

I looking at the flywheel today the clutch face is ok but there is light rust on other faces so I thought I might make a mandrel and mount it in the lathe and clean up all surfaces.

 

Then I thought do people lighten these at all? it weighs 16.6lbs / 7.5kg at the moment so if it is lightened how much and were?(I don,t wan,t a race engine just one that smooth and pulls well to 5500rpm max) I can set the Megajolt to stop over revving?

 

Sump baffling?

 

Blue print the oil pump (I have the offer of 2 NEW ones for FREE so I can mix and match) I have done this with the one I have now and I peg the end cover to keep it in the best position while the bolts are tightened.

 

Do I need to fit new big end bolts and if so which(remembering it is not a race engine) flywheel bolts?

 

So Gents what are your thoughts?

 

Roger

[Clive]

Megajolt can have a soft-cut and hard-cut at any chosen rpm. A handy feature......

I guess you are choosing something like  a TR5 profile for the cam? good as it is aimed at limited RPM. But do get the compression ratio sorted to match, a certain Triumph clever clogs always reckoned a 1500 with a TR5 cam and Toledo (low compression 1300) head worked well along with an extractor manifold to give, 100BHP. By my simple calcs, that head should give a CR of about 10:1 and with megajolt it should be nicely controlled and avoid detonation.

 

Clutch, I believe it is possible to lighten the flywheel, but seek advice as you don't want issues. Likewise I understand it is possible to re-drill it to accept a ford clutch, available with the correct friction plate for the triumph box and decent quality. However, I have never had an issue with proper laycock or B+B clutches (though I wouldn't use the current B+B clutches as they are just badge engineered by firstline) NOS is available from the autojumblers at Stoneleigh every year, and I expect they advertise in CCW or similar? good prices too.

No need for new BE bolts in my experience, but I think ARP cosworth bolts will fit? do check though. Again, I have always re-used flywheel bolts and use a touch of threadlock just in case.

[JohnD]

Good lord, Roger - you have a lathe that can take a flywheel?!?

Why am I advising you?  You have a Workshop for the Gods!

 

I would NOT lighten a flywheel that wasn't going racing.  It has no relevance to top revs, just (very much 'just') on how quickly you can get there.

I'm quite proud to have got my 2 L one down to 6.5kgs.     If you want, Racetorations can sell you an alloy one at 3kgs, but you must be sitting down when they tell you how much.

 

I now get my clutch friction plates recovered.     Eventually I'll need a new clutch cover plate.

 

I'm sure that clive's "simple calcs" will be valid, but IMHO there is no substitute for measuring the chamber volume to calculate the CR.

 

Sump baffling, yes, if you plan 'spirited' driving.     Triumph themselves fitted a surface plate to later six cylinder engines, and vertical baffles, with a 1/4" clearance from the sump walls further prevents starving the pump.    This combination of horizontal and vertical baffles makes for a very strong system, if two vertical are used and braced together.   See below (six-engine, but would translate to a 1500)

John

[rogerguzzi]

Hello JohnD

                  the lathe I have is a 7" swing with a removeable bed gap so I can get a 19" motorcycle wheel in if I run it on centres to skim the brake drum!

 

I also use it as a milling machine with slide that mounts vertically on the cross slide(a bit slow and clumsy but I can not justify a milling machine but I have come mighty close a couple of times!)

 

I mounted the cylinder head on it to machine the lump out between the valves etc as all the books recommend.

 

I can also screw cut on it but not metric as I am missing a 127 tooth gear that does the conversion(but I don't do much metric work)

 

It is not glamorous it is old(like the operator) It has been in my garage for about 35 years and it was ex toolroom then.

 

I don't know how you all manage without a lathe?

 

I agree you have to measure the volume and it is not difficult just takes time(I aim at 1to 2cc's max closer if possible)

 

This time I will make sure all the pistons are the same height to within a few thou.

 

My therory is if you are going to bother do it to the best of you abilites.

 

Now this really going to upset you I also have a drill press about this size

 

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cdp301b-drill-press

 

2 compressors one electric and one petrol driven.

 

One of these.but not from machine mart

 

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/heavy-duty-blast-cabinet

 

A mig welder(but I am not much good at it) the 185

 

http://www.weldequip.com/portamig-mig-welders.htm

 

A couple of motorcycle lifts

 

But the thing that has made my life a lot easier is one of these

 

http://www.hamercarlift.com/HAMER-PRODUCT-RANGE

 

And a home made hydraulic press about 8 tons

 

Plus all the usual spanners, grinders,etc.

 

Roger