Engine to Heater box clearance.

[Wagger]

Hi Folks Just need a simple answer from you Vitesse owners.

What is the distance between the rear of your rocker box cover and the Heater box?

On mine, it is a mere 5/8 inch.

The answer will allow me to determine just how much is due to the engine position and gearbox as the gearstick exit is 1.5 inches rearward.

 

[Colin Lindsay]

The answer will no doubt appear soon but in the meantime have a search online for 'Vitesse engine bay', it might help - I've just had a quick look and found dozens of photos that may help you compare.

[Paul H]

From the vertical face of the rocker box 30mm to the heater box 

 

Paul

 

[Wagger]

Thanks guys. I have looked at various pictures and there is some variance. 30mm is approx 1.2 in. On my car it is 0.625 in which indicates that my engine is only 0.575 in rearward. The gearstick is 1.5 in rearward. To fit the overdrive would require me to shift all 3 inches forward. Pretty tall order. Will be leaving all as it is fr the forseeable. Just as previous thread.

 

[Wagger]

Should have asked this too.

Does the recess in your Vitesse sump line up with the steering rack? And, is where is the ridge wrt the spark plugs? Is it between cranks 2&3 or 1&2?

Workshop manuls may be wrong here.

[DanMi]

17 hours ago, Wagger said:

Thanks guys. I have looked at various pictures and there is some variance. 30mm is approx 1.2 in. On my car it is 0.625 in which indicates that my engine is only 0.575 in rearward. The gearstick is 1.5 in rearward. To fit the overdrive would require me to shift all 3 inches forward. Pretty tall order. Will be leaving all as it is fr the forseeable. Just as previous thread.

 

or shorten the propshaft and maybe a small cut out of the prop tunnel with a plate over so you can tighten the bolts. OD cars always have a shorter prop

[Wagger]

Sorry DanMi.

My earlier post described that mine was an overdrive car from new. It has the shorter propshaft and tunnel cut away but all has been ftted to cater for this. Cannot shorten any further without cutting or spreading the chassis. The engine (2500TC) is almost 3/4 inch too rearward and the gearbox stick exits 1.5 inches too far rearward.  I am just trying to obtain the 'Standard' dimensions from other Vitesse owners. I had two of them in the 1970's and swapped overdrive and non overdrive boxes over, with the props. I know what needs doing. (Wiser but incapable)

I can do the work but my medical condition limits what I can do physically. It is very annoying. I can live with the car as it is because it all works. Working on it any more could take longer than my prognosis suggests. Doing the drive shafts next week, I hope, with the assistance of somebody with more stamina than me. Hopefully, it will be ready for BH weekend.

 

[johny]

sorry Ive got a bit confused with the gearbox position issue in this car. I understand its a 2.5 lump but this should be about the same length as the 2L because the block is the same and the extra capacity was achieved by a longer stroke. Then the gearbox is a 3 rail unit so this means it doesnt matter if its OD or not the gear lever position on them is the same. Now, unless some sort of spacer has been installed between engine and box, if the engine has been installed 3/4" further back then the gear lever should also be the same distance back.

An OD propshaft will have a working length 3.5" shorter than a non OD so if one has been used on your car with a non OD box it would have to be right at the end of its spline travel which isnt recommendable. With the correct 47" prop you could then work forward to get the correct location of each component...  

[NonMember]

21 minutes ago, johny said:

Then the gearbox is a 3 rail unit so this means it doesnt matter if its OD or not the gear lever position on them is the same.

Ah, but is it actually a "3 rail" SC box, or is it a saloon one (which also has three rails but is quite a different beast)?

[Colin Lindsay]

1 hour ago, Wagger said:

The engine (2500TC) is almost 3/4 inch too rearward and the gearbox stick exits 1.5 inches too far rearward. 

Ok so there's a disparity between the two; if the engine is 3/4 inches too far backwards (and you don't want to move it to the proper place in front of the engine mountings, not behind?) then the gearbox should be the same 3/4 inch further back too. (Just spotted Johny has stated that, above) What are you measuring it against? Do you mean where the gearlever exits the top of the gearbox tunnel? There are two types of tunnel for two different positions of gearstick; many owners just elongate the hole and patch the unused portion. As Johny says the block is the same so unless it's some kind of non-standard bellhousing or top extension it should be the same distance back as the engine.

[johny]

20 minutes ago, NonMember said:

Ah, but is it actually a "3 rail" SC box, or is it a saloon one (which also has three rails but is quite a different beast)?

Think I read earlier its a late GT6/Dolomite 1850 unit...

[NonMember]

We need photos! Come on Wagger, stop making us guess and give us the photographic evidence. 😉

[Wagger]

Sorry guys, you will have to be patient with me. I am living with advanced prostate cancer, which renders me tired with lack of stamina. When I feel well I overdo it then suffer for a day or so.

However, I can tell yo that the gearbox is the three rail 306468, late GT6 and Early Dolomite version. I know that the engine blocks are identical, but the gearbox may be longer than the Mk1 Vitesse 2 litre. I merely wanted some measurements to confirm. Will borrow my wife's phone soon to take pictures as my Samsung camera refuses to take close ups.

I am not asking anyone to guess. I asked for dimensions and did receive an answer to one of those.

The bell housing is definitely Vitesse and is bolted right up to the engine with no sign of a spacer. It may be that the rear extension and remote shifter are longer than Vitesse versions. Next time the cover is off, I will take pictures.

[johny]

Im no expert but its come up before that the 2.5 can have a 'long back' crank which means that the boss the flywheel fits to is deeper. The appropriate flywheel is thicker with a deeper recess for the boss to fit into but if a lighter 2L flywheel is used the clutch surface will end up further away from the engine backplate. Then to keep the clutch working correctly the bell housing needs to moved back the same distance...

[NonMember]

Sorry, Wagger, wasn't meaning to pressure you, just a bit of light-hearted joshing.

As far as I know there are no differences in dimensions of any of the 3-rail gearboxes, and only two remotes, the other one of which puts the gear lever a foot or two forward. The Vitesse bell housing is longer than a Herald one, and a Dolomite 1850 one is the same depth as a Vitesse one but won't fit the engine. There are no other types.

As johny says, some 2.5 engines have long cranks, but in that case you cannot attach a Vitesse gearbox without a spacer between backplate and bell housing.

[Wagger]

I believe that one of you has hit 'The nail on the head'.

The mechanics show no sign of anything 'Non standard) but the gearbox cover is fibreglass and has a 'Hacked out' hole. However, the carpet set, new in 2002, fits nicely,BUT, the gearstick exits at the extreme rear of it. There are no spacers between bell housing and engine or between bell housing and gearbox. Maybe the remote shifter is not Vitesse.

When able, I will crawl under, mearsure the prop length, flange to flange, and double check that it is not fully 'compressed. Last time I looked, it suggested that it had some distance left. Measuring will confirm.

Going to look at a modified sump today just five doors down the road where a guy is restoring a 2500 engine to fit in his GT6.

 

[Colin Lindsay]

Ok, that's easy to sort. The remote is probably standard; they're not easy to modify. I'd suspect the cover: see photos for comparison. They look exactly the same, only the hole for the gearlever differs. Your carpet set may be Herald / one size fits all rather than Vitesse, too, so again the hole has been cut for the gearlever that's further forward. With the tunnel, many owners just cut and shape a cover, mine is thin sheet painted black, and screwed into captive nuts with self tappers. Invisible once the carpet is fitted.

 

  

 

 

[Paul H]

On 21/08/2021 at 09:36, Wagger said:

Should have asked this too.

Does the recess in your Vitesse sump line up with the steering rack? And, is where is the ridge wrt the spark plugs? Is it between cranks 2&3 or 1&2?

Workshop manuls may be wrong here.

Does this help

 

Paul

 

[Wagger]

Thanks guys, that explains a lot. The hole has been cut in the 'Wrong' place for either of those covers shown.

However, my factory workshop manual, and most Vitesse sump pictures show the ridge between cylinders 2 & 3.

The one on your photo is between 1&2, so is my mate's beaten in 2500 sump. Therefore, mystery not quite solved.

The book could be wrong, but it is the Stanpart one issued to dealers.

I'll go to a show next weekend and ask owners to 'Pop their bonnets's, Watch out for Wagger.

[Wagger]

Just checked the books again. The drawings are in a strange projection. Sort of perspective, not isometric. It does appear that the ridge is between 2&3, but the actual sump drg shows it between 1&2. Careful transposition reveals that I was incorrect. It is between cranks 1&2. Apologies.

All will become clear during this week whan I crawl under and take measurements. Only want to do that once. Last week the fifth crawl under resulted in a delay of five minutes trying to return to my feet. This is crazy. Legs won't go but I can still do 25 press ups. Will try walking on my hands next time. (I wish)

Thanks for your comments and patience guys.

[Wagger]

Just an update folks. No need to comment. I have managed to reset my camera and will post pictures after family have gone home early in September.

Meanwhile, all is now a bit more rational. I have the engine and gearbox positioned a mere 0.75 inches rearward.

Why? Because I measured the propshaft which is 'Bang on' the 'Fitted length' for the non-overdrive version. It is not fully compressed but will not reach if I move the gearbox and engine forward to the 'Correct' position.

I am awaiting the rear hub puller right now, so will investigate the differential mounting when I do that job. It could be fitted wrong side of something or have a flange that is non standard maybe missing a spacer.

The plus side of this is that there will be space for the overdrive. However, I require the adapter plate between gearbox and overdrive, the output shaft from a non-overdrive 'box' and the shorter propshaft. If any of you have these bits, let me know. All of the switchery is still in place with wiring.

At least it will be useable without any worries now that I know that the prop is not being stretched or compressed.