johny Posted October 3, 2021 Report Share Posted October 3, 2021 Barry the workshop manual that is kindly free to download at this site: Triumph Car Service manuals - Vitessesteve has a couple of excellent sectional diagrams for your gearbox and clutch. You can even work out the sizes of things by comparing the drawings with actual component measurements... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrykearley Posted October 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2021 Thanks all. I’m properly puzzled by it all. I can see all so very clearly the huge amount of play in the arm - can physically see the distance between the clutch spring plate and the bearing. I can only see what I have in front of me - and whatever it is right or wrong - the play needs to be removed for the clutch to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted October 4, 2021 Report Share Posted October 4, 2021 I dont know, theres still something that doesnt add up here. With the slave cylinder removed from the car its piston should be fully out, hard against the stop circlip as it pushed by its internal spring. When you install it the pushrod has to push the piston back in quite a distance and the only way this can happen is if the release bearing is up against the clutch. From this moment the pushrod, the operating arm and release bearing must all be constantly under tension and if not then the slave cylinder piston has either reached the end of its travel or is jammed and wont extend any further. To determine this, with everything installed feel where the piston is inside the slave cylinder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrykearley Posted October 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2021 When all together - the pushrod does indeed sit up against the arm. Trouble is - the furthest throw of the arm isn’t enough to fully engage the clutch - and the free play on the arm as shown in the video is clearly the issue. That garage that did the for the PO must have known it was plain wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted October 4, 2021 Report Share Posted October 4, 2021 Cant see the video because it needs an additional file but anyway as I say there should never be any freeplay in the system. All I can think is that your slave cylinder piston is reaching the end of its travel before completely disengaging the clutch - with it operated and the rubber cover removed can you feel whether the piston has come up against its retaining circlip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted October 4, 2021 Report Share Posted October 4, 2021 some simple data you can check throw out is 19mm thick yours is 16mm the height of the platform is 2.18" from the FW face thats on a disc of 0.33" thick the max height of the spring adjusters screws is 2.70" you need a min of travel 0.37" to effect release do have the correct slave cyl. the comments about pushrod being self adjusting to maintain a touch with the platform are all relevant the throwout lever is common to all the vitesse Gt6 the 1600 is not different the carrier is shorter as the coil clutch stand off is greater than diaphragm the fork pins and groove look in good contion the fact the lever is over articlulated and there is still a gap brg to platform is odd is the clutch fitted correct please measure the platorm height maybe this is looking like slave problems not discounting you need to pack the spherical when using a thin brg.to re align the lever angles Pete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrykearley Posted October 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2021 Bit of an update - shimmed bearing forwards by 3mm - shimmed pivot pin forwards with a washer. was going to try it back on the car tonight - but thought I’d pull the clutch off to have a check of some of the above numbers. Yeah that put it on job stop - since the pilot spigot bush is simply missing 😳 - thanks go out to the garage that did this for the PO. Just awaiting a delivery now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted October 12, 2021 Report Share Posted October 12, 2021 its quite common after years of misguided messing that one problem found is the start or sooooo many more it goes with the hobby Ha ! did you measure the brg platform stand off , before you popped the clutch off ??? just to add i converted mine to a diaphragm easy to drill the extra dowel hole and use a 2ltr carrier food for thought next time Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrykearley Posted October 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2021 Yes @Pete Lewis I did - and it pretty much tied up with the measurement you provided above. It could be any multitude of things including an over machined flywheel to blame. ive no idea now - I’ve shimmed the bearing and the pivot - fingers crossed once the spigot bush arrives I can trial fit and see if the range of motion is now enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted October 13, 2021 Report Share Posted October 13, 2021 we await the conclusion without a culprit Ha ! Pete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted October 13, 2021 Report Share Posted October 13, 2021 Hello Barry. I used to have a mini with he same problem:- Crunchy first & reverse. I found out that the clutch pipe hose was failing, when in use. Bleeding the clutch won't show up the fault, only in operation. Have an assistant to depress the clutch when you can inspect the quality of the hose. It took me a week to find it, and I had a complete new clutch stood by.... Argh!! Extending the slave operating rod is a possibility. For testing, try a longer rod (IE, an old bolt). This is for test only, I should suggest. The objective of the test should prove/not prove your clutch system is working. If you need to move the slave cylinder, there are ways & means to achieve that without too much trouble. For a last throw in, check the clutch pedal fulcrum is doing its job. If your pedal travel is taking up slack excessively... It's not an exhaustive list, but I hope you get to the problem. Cheers, Ian. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrykearley Posted October 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2021 20 hours ago, Pete Lewis said: we await the conclusion without a culprit Ha ! Pete I’m genuinely at a loss and wanted an exact answer. My buddy at the garage has simply said give up and shim it - stop over thinking it. Fingers crossed the bush appears today. @Ian Smith the clutch pipe is brand new kunifer - travel is great - but the arm runs out of travel when the clutch arm hits the gearbox casing. There’s far far too much free play before the bearing nose touches the clutch sprung platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted October 14, 2021 Report Share Posted October 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Barrykearley said: I’m genuinely at a loss and wanted an exact answer. My buddy at the garage has simply said give up and shim it - stop over thinking it. Fingers crossed the bush appears today. @Ian Smith the clutch pipe is brand new kunifer - travel is great - but the arm runs out of travel when the clutch arm hits the gearbox casing. There’s far far too much free play before the bearing nose touches the clutch sprung platform. I don't doubt the quality of the work of either yourself or the garage person. The clutch has 2 actions: a hydraulic action, and a mechanical linkage action. If you're satisfied that the hydraulic action is good, then it must be a mechanical link action. Another thing might have happened is the clutch cylinder to pedal clevis pin. The master cylinder rod locates either side of the pedal arm, with a clevis pin. Losing a pin like this means that the fork remains in place, but loses all of its work. Good luck, Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonMember Posted October 14, 2021 Report Share Posted October 14, 2021 2 hours ago, Barrykearley said: There’s far far too much free play before the bearing nose touches the clutch sprung platform So the pedal is operating the slave cylinder through its full travel until the arm stops it, but the arm moves a fair way before the release bearing makes contact with the clutch diaphragm (or levers, if it's a coil spring clutch)? If so, there are a few possibilities: - The release bearing carrier is the wrong one. There are a few different lengths. I don't remember which one you need for a Vitesse but if you need the middle and have the short then you will get the problem you describe - The release arm isn't properly located in the bearing carrier. - The pivot mushroom is too short. I'm not sure that's likely as I don't think there were multiple lengths, but it could be that... - The release arm is worn through at the pivot point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted October 14, 2021 Report Share Posted October 14, 2021 yes but pictures show the fork pins and carrier groove to be fine , the spring cover has the shorter of the two carriers barry has raised the sperical post with a packer and about to space the thin 16mm bearing is the arm collapsing ?? or distorted /bent ??? swapping slaves or adjusting master cyl strokes wont help a basic withdrawl arm is fouling the housing apperture before its stroking the clutch this is really very odd all appears correct but it doesnt stack up.......... the platform height seems correct also now even wondering if there is clutch hsg problem rather than the operating guts ???? Pete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrykearley Posted October 14, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2021 The arm does not appear distorted or worn. please folks - forget the hydraulics - it’s all new and functions as it should providing plenty of travel. This is simply a case of too much free play before the release bearing touches the clutch spring plate platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted October 15, 2021 Report Share Posted October 15, 2021 It`s, a definite mystery?. Has it been "interfered with" over the past life?. Do the engine/gearbox numbers gel?. Someone swapped/modified a bell housing? "wrong" clutch/Flywheel?**. In it`s past. Seems weird that the Combined thoughts of this forum have not triggered something?. **Has the flywheel been excessivly skimmed at some point?. You refered to a 3mm difference back in the post?. It was not an unknown practice back in the day?. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted October 15, 2021 Report Share Posted October 15, 2021 I know Mark at Jigsaw ran into problems which was again down to replacement bearings being 15mm not 19mm thick RHP did some of the correct 19mm I had found this out a good few years back hence the space the pivot post out idea evolved to correct the arm alignments the thin bearing problem applies also to diaphragm units not just the coil covers operating geometry is very important if the withdrawl lever is let say Late then the pins are now below the centre line of the front cover tube it runs on this then pitches the bearing and the tube gets ridges worn as they are quite soft metal and up and jerky go the pedal loads Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted October 15, 2021 Report Share Posted October 15, 2021 12 hours ago, Barrykearley said: The arm does not appear distorted or worn. please folks - forget the hydraulics - it’s all new and functions as it should providing plenty of travel. This is simply a case of too much free play before the release bearing touches the clutch spring plate platform. Ok Barry, you've nailed the hydraulics (pardon the pun ). So, it's mechanical. Like others, I'd suggest it's the clutch release bearing. Or, the carrier for the bearing. Working back, you've got the clutch drive plate Pressure plate, release bearing & carrier. Fulcrum pin & arm Then we're onto the hydraulics, which you're happy with. Back to mechanics. Master cylinder to pedal box, Clutch pedal fulcrum. And that's about it... My money would be on the carrier being too short. Cheers, Ian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted October 15, 2021 Report Share Posted October 15, 2021 the carrier is effectively short due to the throw out bearing being 4 mm thinner than design the diaphragm clutch carrier would be too long so a packer as barry has sourced will correct the thin to thicker then its see what that does in the grand scheme of things if the back of crank or flywheel are not to 1600 spec that would also give you travel problems as far as i know there was never a long or short back 1600 crank but a flywheel from some obscure place may make an offender but then the diaphragm flywheel has a different dowel locations to the coil cover flywheel so a bearing spacer and lifting the pivot post will have to sort this out or it will never get going Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrykearley Posted October 15, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2021 Bearing has been shimmed forwards by 3mm. Pivot pin shimmed forwards by 2 washers. Clutch spring plate checked for levels. flywheel removed and missing spigot bearing replaced. Its all back together tonight - just - albeit it with the tunnel and carpets left to put back in. I now have very little play on the arm - and a fantastic operational clutch. The PO had clearly spent a lot on this with a garage - new clutch, master, slave, hydraulic pipe, rebuilt gearbox and was still left with a knackered car - the fault frankly was obvious but I was looking for an exact answer. Clearly there’s something obscure with something in there - and shimming it has just overcome whatever it is. It’s done 750 miles in 4 years he owned it and it was never right. One mans loss is another mans gain 👍. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Smith Posted October 16, 2021 Report Share Posted October 16, 2021 Well done Barry; pleased to see you resolved it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted October 16, 2021 Report Share Posted October 16, 2021 Glad to see you got a result. I (personally) would still wonder IF the Flywheel has been the "victim" of excess machining?. But a result is a result, regardless.👍 Persistance wins in the end. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrykearley Posted October 16, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2021 I suspect @PeteH that that may well have been the case. I’ll never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted October 16, 2021 Report Share Posted October 16, 2021 thats good the ideas have got a resolve now onwards to driving her Pete 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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