Outriggers & rear extensions

[Colin]

Hi Gents, Has anyone knowledge of - or own - any Practical Classic type magazine (or anything I can cross-reference) featuring a body-on Herald chassis renewal, please? 

If so, I'd be very pleased indeed to see it photographed/scanned - or indeed if it can be spared, sold & posted to me!! 

Thanks for any assistance & thoughts and with thanks to those good forum members who have previously issued diagrams-pics from various sources.

Am currently talking to a mainly Morris Minor restorer who has asked about the inability to get to weld the rigger top of the main rails. Whilst I understand there are tabs that can be fabricated and seen measuremented (new,word) diagrams, in my eyes, they still make it look as if the 'tabs' affix to the top of that inaccessible rail?!?! 

Unless the fabricated tab is welded to the underside of the rails?? 

Anyway - clearly I am misunderstanding what I have seen to date! Really need to see & read step by step procedure! 

Thanks, Chaps.

Colin. 

[Pete Lewis]

yes you can add atab to the outrigger that hangs over the top of the main rails and is folded to enable welding to the back of the main rail 

i would assume the tbs tend to be DIY not aware of any ready made   ,

maybe chic doig ??

and workshop manual has a detailed chassis drawing often copied on here 

Pete                                     my scannner is having a bad hair day just now 

[Colin Lindsay]

Some modern outriggers come with tabs for welding round the chassis rails; I have a step-by-step guide somewhere that shows the procedure - I'll be back this afternoon and will find it then. 

In fact just found one!

http://www.fairpoint.net/~herald948/database/chassis.htm

[Colin]

Thanks Both,

You have indeed both helped me with this before and I took a screenshot of the diagrams - very helpful. These tabs . . . you describe they fit over the top of the main rail and fold back in order to make the weld joint. Dos the body tub allow sufficient space to pass that through? I just assumed (there I go again!) the tub would be tight down on the rails and not allow any passage of 2-3mm steel. But if it does - great!!

As you can tell, I don't jack the car up and crawl under it as often as I once did!

Cheers,

C.

[Colin Lindsay]

There are substantial gaps between body and chassis (except at mounting points) so plenty of room so slide the tabs and outriggers into place. You can see the tab on this GT6 outrigger:

 

[Colin]

Thanks Colin.

My ignorance will kick in again, here:- the 'tab' when measured against the length if the top edge of that outrigger seems really weedy. I assume that, body-off, the entirety of that edge would be seam welded (?) onto the rail - but here, for a body-on fit, one only has that tiny tab to secure the rigger top??!🤔 Wow!

Continued thanks - Best, Colin

 

[DanMi]

3 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

There are substantial gaps between body and chassis (except at mounting points) so plenty of room so slide the tabs and outriggers into place. You can see the tab on this GT6 outrigger:

 

that tab on the GT6 outrigger is a tab to hold the wiring loom, not for welding as the spit/GT6 outrigger does not have the body in the way so can easily be welded on with the body in place

[Colin]

Oh! Many thanks for that Danmi!!

I thought it was at the very least, a bit puny!! 😁

[Colin Lindsay]

On 19/06/2023 at 14:25, DanMi said:

that tab on the GT6 outrigger is a tab to hold the wiring loom, not for welding as the spit/GT6 outrigger does not have the body in the way so can easily be welded on with the body in place

Never knew that! Didn't know the wiring loom ran along there in any case, I thought it was inside the bodyshell.

Apologies for the mis-guidance, it looked bigger on the mobile screen...

[DanMi]

2 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

Never knew that! Didn't know the wiring loom ran along there in any case, I thought it was inside the bodyshell.

Apologies for the mis-guidance, it looked bigger on the mobile screen...

That is the front outrigger, it attaches to the main rail in front of the main body tub. The loom to the bonnet comes down the bulkhead and then along the mainrail and is clipped in with that tab with a pastic sheath over it there are 3 further similar clips forward of that one as can be seen in this thread  https://www.triumphexp.com/forum/spitfire-and-gt6-forum.8/frame-bent-or-not.915627/page-2

Edited June 21, 2023 by DanMi

[Colin]

Hello People,

Just as a little update; 

I visited & had the underside of my 1970 saloon closely inspected in Northfleet, Kent yesterday.

On the basis that an e-mail correspondance the owner agreed that a non-body off chassis member replacement is 'do-able' (at last!).

As a result of those inspections, whilst establishing the front body mounts needed remaking too, certainly his estimate went up, but not too scarily.

The presence of at least two Jaguars and a rather nice Corvette Stingray as clients, his reassurance that they will look after the car and, if I wished, help to attend to a couple of other niggles I still experience since last renovation, persuaded me to sign on the line with him - plus - will be done before this Christmas coming . . . . (August, in fact!). 

If anyone in the South East not being able to justify the cost of a body-off chassis member replacement wishes to privately ask me which company IS happy to do this, I'm happy to divulge.

Best, 

Colin 

[Pete Lewis]

there was a BL tech note on top welding riggers on car  

who has it ????   might have been in the training notes ???

Pete

[Josef]

On 22/06/2023 at 09:15, Pete Lewis said:

there was a BL tech note on top welding riggers on car  

who has it ????   might have been in the training notes ???

Pete

Colin linked to a copy of it further up.

[Colin]

Fellow Chaps; I should report back. Remember: 1970 1200. We had extensive chats about fold-over tabs on outriggers for body-on, body-tub chassis member & siderail replacements. Well, the fêted garage I selected certainly did replace my (Rimmer purchase) supplied riggers & rails (photos) to the car I fully stripped out. Whether they decided to add tabs or not I'm not sure (but should have been communicated to me). I expected body mounts to have been attended to but collected the car, still full of paint-metal grounds, an insulating strip unfitted and body mounts unattended to. I then went through a protracted dialogue concerning said mounts and surprise, surprise was told the car would need to be body-off to renew; was given another estimate twice the cost of the rigger/rail work). Surely at this stage a hard & fast price could be created, I thought? Additionally, the cost of 'panels' (passenger area floor replacement for one) to be used were on the 'estimate' list, for which no costs were given and I established they had no accounts with any of the usual Triumph trade suppliers. They were therefore unable to say where said panels  would come from. My feeling was they'd fabricate bit charge me for retail units. Either way, I pulled out from having its second session booking and am left with a fully stripped out car. Bonnet & driver's door worse a fit than they were. With thd photos & film I upload here, I am currently trying again to find someone to undertake the mount renewal works (and have already been told again by A.N.Other that said bodymount works CAN be achieved from the interior, body-on). I hold both sides, prepped 'B' post supports. Herewith the photos & film. And yes, I am kicking myself for having done her up 'arse-about-face', e.g. yes I should have had the old corroded body off, chassis fixed and then body re-built . . . but budgets are extremely tight and I have been hoping a bit-by-bit approach was going to be possible. As they say, it's the hope that kills!!   Cheers, All!                                           C.

[Colin]

[Josef]

I’m sorry to hear the work has not turned out as you expected Colin, I know it’s frustrating (been there, done that, decided to do it myself in future!)

To start with, you can’t buy panels / repair sections for the rotten areas you show in your video. Difficult to say without poking at the car, but even if you could get a replacement panel, looks like this garage’s suggestion of ripping out the whole floor is overkill… Also, looks like they’ve welded your sill tabs to the chassis!? Not pointing at a lot of familiarity with the Herald range.

What exactly do you mean by front body mounts? The two per side under the bulkhead section? They might just be doable with the bulkhead on. If that is the a post area is intact. However if they’re in a state bad enough to need replacing, there’s a high chance the rest of the a post is in trouble too, and that would be hard-to-impossible with the bulkhead on the chassis. I’ve just done this job on my 13/60, it’s been a lot of work even with the bulkhead off.

While I completely understand that a fixed price would be desirable as a customer, having now done a reasonable amount of rust repair myself I can see why a business would not want to offer that. It’s a real time sink, and there’s always more than first impressions suggest. So I’d actually be slightly wary of anyone who thinks they can quote for it rather than estimate. 

[Colin]

Hi Josef. It's at times like this I wish I had learned to weld!

Am if I'm honest, I don't know what I mean by front body-mounts, except that the many looking underneath her on the garage lift said they'd need repair and that it was do-able, but probably sill removal would be necessary (fine). However, my 'educated' guess would be they (& I) referred to thevpoint at which o/s front outrigger meets font of o/s siderail . . . these must be adjoined to the bodytub in some way. I know I have a front lower scuttle perforation in front of the accelerator pedal which is not a million miles away from that point and maybe it's there they were referring to. I was expecting a 'patch' repair to that part!! As far as the 'inside' video goes, I think that those areas could be judicially cut, and repair panels fabricated (although I hold new & prepped 'B' post supports which could be welded in)? And, although not ideal, body-on, from the inside . . . 101 ways to skin a cat . . . ?? Either way, I am where I am and I need to resolve this before I can put her into any sense of normality!! 🙂 Cheers for your thoughts!! 

Best, C

[Pete Lewis]

my first  Herald a 59  948  we had in 67   had no floor and the two front body mounts were just holes in the floor 

so at 8 years old it was a complete rust bucket in 1967 

pete

[Colin Lindsay]

Try to get a second opinion on the work. When I needed the GT6 boot floor replaced a local company quoted me 400 - FOUR HUNDRED! hours work, telling me that was the time they spent doing the same job on an Austin A35. I'd already bought the Fitchett floor panel and rear valence so it should have been a straightforward cut out and replace. A local firm did it in 20 hours; boot floor and rear valence replaced and respray of the required areas to a beautiful standard. If you try another firm they may be more realistic.

[Pete Lewis]

pic of the  approach to repair the floor/A post base and the two front body mounts  

i believe Chic Doig made a repair section for this job   it was a nightmare of patch and head scratching  

if we did it again we would have known more ....always clever after the event 

Pete

 

[Colin]

Hi everyone. Thanks for kind and supportive words. I certainly am getting other's opinions!!

Pete:- thanks for the front 'A' post(?) repair section pics. That looks like the front of one of the footwells?? Two welded brackets?? I wonder how I can get a handle on where that is?!? 

Best, Colin.

[Josef]

I know it’s not that close to you Colin, but the closest place I know will give you a good knowledge backed opinion is Southern Triumph Services in Bournemouth. I would at least consider making the journey if I were you. 
Another option: How close are you to your local area meet? There hopefully will be a local member who can have a look and at least give you an easy/medium/hard level opinion of the work that might be needed. Only so far we can go with photos. I’d happily take a look in person if I wasn’t about 6hrs away!

Oh and Pete’s photo is the drivers side front a post as if you were looking up through the chassis. The rightmost bracket in the photo bolts to where the front outrigger and side rail join. 

[Josef]

Hopefully these give you a bit of positional context. 

[Colin]

Josef, oh! Right, thanks. Yes I know where I am !! And beautifully clear, too. Thanks very much!!

C. 

[Jon J 1250]

Sorry to hear you are not getting the quality of work you expected, it can be quite painful as many people just don't have the knowledge of these cars anymore.

I have attached some photos from when I was inspecting and repainting the front brackets on my car and luckily they were fine and just needed to be cleaned and repainted, but I think there is enough room to repair and replace the brackets with the bulkhead on the car. If the floor pan behind the bracket is holed then afraid that is easier with bulkhead removed, but I have done it with the bulkhead and side rails in situ, it just depends how far the rot has gone. Either way it is a time consuming job to do properly. If the floor has rotted behind the brackets and A Post, one cause for this to investigate is the windscreen gutter, if that is bulging and holed behind the P shaped seal that seals against the 1/4 light then that is where water is getting in and rotting the floor structure.

I have also included a photo showing how the sill tabs are supposed to be attached, but these days self-tapping screws will also do the trick as replacement siderails don't tend to have the holes for the caged nuts.

Its hard to tell will all the underseal but get the feeling most of your rear floor looks absolutely fine so could easily be patched and repaired in my view.

I hope you find somebody who knows what they are doing, as well as Southern Triumph, there is Anglian Triumph in Suffolk and Moordale Motors in Potters Bar, I don't know either company but they've both been around for a while so must be doing something right.

All the best of luck
Jon

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Jon J 1250