Hello!! Some Newbie advice needed :D

[SLeonard]

Hi! New members here in Gloucester. My  son (18yrs) has just bought a 1972 spit’ with 1500 engine that was nut and bolt rebuilt 22 yrs ago. Since then it has driven 500 miles!

We’re really looking forward to getting involved in Triumph events (I do similar with a Shelby GT500 he cannot touch!). Before we do all of the oily bits are starting to complain after sitting so long (running rich, leak from front of diff, a few leaks from engine). We’re keen to do things right and get it running as best it can. Plan is to fix any leaks and then upgrade the carbs, ignition and fuel pump. So two parter: 

1. Any recommendations for best carb swap for the most reliable low maintenance solution for a car that will be a regular driver (no racing)

2. Any recommendations for garages in the Gloucester(shire) area to have the engine and running gear checked out?

Thanks so much everyone!!

 

[Pete Lewis]

whilst i am not a great fan of SU they are quite capable of doing a good long lasting reliable job any supposed upgrade whatever that might be will just give you a headache 

as a 1500 it should have waxstat jets  these are easilly modified by prise the crimped base open remove the wax capsule and replace with 2  x 1p peices  you must retain the metal spacer

and geta workshop manual on the wish list 

Pete

[SLeonard]

Thanks @Pete Lewis  We already have the Haynes Manual and chasing down the workshop manuals currently. Already sorted out some electrical gremlins causing issues with tail lights and blown fuses. I’m currently dealing with a charging problem (12.4V across the battery at 2500rpm) so figuring the alternator is the issue, following my lad calling for help last night and getting an RAC tow home!

I was unsure about changing the SU’s but its running very rich and also rpms rising to 1800 ish when warm, so wondering if we should rebuild the carbs or switch for ease of maintenance. Last time I cleaned a carb was 25 yrs ago, let alone balancing a twin setup. Partly why I also wondered if a good classic garage was a go to to get it to a solid place before I go wild on the spanners. 

[Pete Lewis]

def sound like the waxstats on the base of the jets is stuff    do the 1p swap it really works .do not buy the silly money conversion kits they are very poor 

once done  screw adjuster to level the jet with the throat /bridge and back it down 3 full turns to geta start setting 

as for bakancing  wind idle screw clear of the body , turn in to just touch the add 1.5 turns to set the throttle plates at idle reconnect the connecting shaft 

dont need any special anything to make it as it came from the factory    just basic mechanical even settings 

on the charging front make sure the warning light is working if its blown the alt wont charge 

Pete

Edited August 26, 2023 by Pete Lewis

[SLeonard]

Thanks. Thats some great advice and appreciated. I’ll look at making the changes this weekend. 
Pretty sure the bulb lights with ignition on but will check. Ordered an alternator anyway and will rebuild the old one with my son. It’s his car and great getting an 18yr old learning these skills!

I’m also wondering if there’s a leak to the manifold adding air to the mixture when it warms up, so I’ll order some gaskets. Okay, so we’ll rebuild the carbs, find 4 x 1p coins (2 for each) and some gaskets! Wish us luck!

Thanks again @Pete Lewis. This is a great introduction to the group and its value. I hope we can give back soon!

Simon. 

Edited August 26, 2023 by SLeonard
Added clarification

[Pete Lewis]

dont take any springs off the throttle spindle you never get them back right 

take care un crimping the waxstat as you need to refit  it   and dont loose the small metal spacer inside   

pete

[Josef]

If you need some more hands on assistance then also consider getting in touch with your local area group. It’s probably Worcester in your case https://www.tssc.org.uk/tssc/areas_final.asp?area_ID=23&area=Midland, Worcester but check out the full list too https://www.tssc.org.uk/tssc/areas_google.asp (my geography of the midlands is pretty shocking, and besides I don’t know exactly where you live  )

[JohnD]

SLeonard,

Clearly you have some experience with classics!  And want to give your son the same.  All good advice above!

But " upgrade the carbs, ignition and fuel pump"?  Is this to improve performance, or for reliability?

Pete is quite right that Waxstats are unreliable, and although I can't comment on his suggestion, he is a most reliable advisor!    On Ignition, I have an optical alternative to the Contact breaker in the dizzy, widely available and in my experience most reliable.     The original fuel pump is pretty reliable, but many have fitted an electric pump.  You don't need a high pressure one like a Facet Gold Top - one of their low pressure models is quite sufficient, eg FACET Low Pressure Fuel Pump Road 40104 1.5-4psi Electric Weber Carb Dellorto | eBay

But just an ignition, fuel pump and carb change, even a pair of Webers, isn't going to make much difference to performance.      Flowing the inlets and exhaust ducts, installing a tubular exhaust manifold and increasing the compression ratio can do that. It's really too big a subject to write about in general.   Improving performance demands brake and suspension improvements too, and if you really go for it, then a roll-over bar, even for road use.   My son's first car was a Spitfire, and he wasn't allowed on the road with it until we fitted a hoop.

Please tell us how you get on!

JOhn

PS "wondering if there’s a leak to the manifold adding air to the mixture"   A good test is to spray some inflammable fluid at any suspect edges of the gasket while the engine idles.  Any leak will suck in some fuel and result in a slight increase in revs.     Brake cleaner is good, or WD40, but not petrol!    This IS safe!   Just don't empty the bottle on the engine.  J.

Edited August 27, 2023 by JohnD

[Paul H]

I’ve fitted a Huco 133001 fuel pump . Fits in the engine bay on my Vitesse 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334971878090?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338749392&toolid=20006&customid=GB_131090_334971878090.142394001106~1872072052518-g_Cj0KCQjw6KunBhDxARIsAKFUGs-2oNdOpKPlJhiJV1UBvfqeJexsKIpSKy2tTe-mK1pYxnzx2pd_UJEaAldAEALw_wcB

Paul 

[SLeonard]

@JohnD Thanks for the comment. I have experience with classic Mustangs, although currently I have a newer 2009 GT500 with a built engine and larger blower. 
 

My lad though is looking for advice for reliability, not performance. At 18 any modification to drastically increase performance would need declaring and probably be too costly for his insurance. He is looking to drive the car much more regularly than it has done for years and use it. Happy for people to say use the stock fuel pumps etc, if they are reliable. Likewise the carbs and ignition, but have made the (maybe wild) assumption that there would be more reliable options to SU’s and the original dizzy/ points. 
 

This thread is already proving valuable and I am very appreciative, thank you!

[SLeonard]

Looks like a previous owner has already installed fixed jets (or they predate waxstats)as I can see a red end under each carb, so I’m guessing we will just need to balance them. I’ll test for air leaks too. Car runs at 1000rpm on cold start with choke but rises to 1500-1800 rpm quite quickly as it warms, with choke off. 
 

I’m going to check timing and then have a go at rebalancing the carbs tomorrow. 

Edited August 27, 2023 by SLeonard

[Pete Lewis]

while looking check there is a small gap  between  the adjustable fast idle stop/tappet screw and the choke cam 

Pete

[DanMi]

If it is running rich also check that the jets are fully returning after releasing the choke, they can be a bit sticky and need pushing up if not carefully fitted and adjusted

[SLeonard]

Hi all. Bit of an update. Wound the idle right down to just under 1000rpm and the had to turn the jet adjustment 3 full turns anticlockwise which I think is leaner. Car idles smoothly and is more driveable. It feels like it has less power, but smoother and less frantic. 
 

However. The bad bit. Car is now blowing blue smoke especially on initial throttle and acceleration and the orange light flickers on on idle. I can’t see how this has anything to do with changing the fuel/ air mix but maybe someone could enlighten me, or just plain bad luck? 

 

[Steve P]

Winding the jet down makes it richer, which may account for the smoke, does it smell rich?, might be worth going up a couple of flats, how do the plugs look after a run?.

I used Maynards Engines in Nailsworth near Stroud for a 1500 build, they tuned it on their rolling road for me. They have knowledge of many classics.

Steve

[johny]

I assume the orange light is the right hand one in the speedo so is the ignition light that when lit indicates the alternator is not charging the battery. This is because the engine now idles at a lower speed so the alternator output is less but its surprising that its low enough to illuminate the warning light and that it flickers rather than glow faintly. Did you have any extra electrical load in the system such as head lights or heated screen turned on?

[SLeonard]

45 minutes ago, Steve P said:

Winding the jet down makes it richer, which may account for the smoke, does it smell rich?, might be worth going up a couple of flats, how do the plugs look after a run?.

I used Maynards Engines in Nailsworth near Stroud for a 1500 build, they tuned it on their rolling road for me. They have knowledge of many classics.

Steve

Hang on @Steve P. Winding the jet adjusting nut anticlockwise makes it richer? I did get confused by the Haynes manual that states up for leaner, down for richer, so I screwed anticlockwise which is “up” the thread?

You’re local then? Sounds like Maynards might be a good shout as engine needs a thorough going over too. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by SLeonard

[Steve P]

I`m in Surrey but at the time I did the build on my Vitesse engine,  a well known Triumph man was working at Maynards so he did my engine, I went back to them for my Herald 1500 engine as I liked the guys there and trusted them. Martin did the tuning. Alex now runs it after he took over from Mark Maynard.

On the Jet, anti clock makes it richer, unless it`s a left hand thread. Haynes is correct, down for richer-up for leaner?. I always start at 2.5 full turns down from the bridge and go from there.

Steve

[johny]

yes seems a bit confusing depending on whether looking from the top or bottom of the carb! Maybe its best to measure the distance of the plastic jet pipe connector to the underside of the carb then if that gets less the mixture is weaker and vice versa....

[SLeonard]

14 hours ago, johny said:

I assume the orange light is the right hand one in the speedo so is the ignition light that when lit indicates the alternator is not charging the battery. This is because the engine now idles at a lower speed so the alternator output is less but its surprising that its low enough to illuminate the warning light and that it flickers rather than glow faintly. Did you have any extra electrical load in the system such as head lights or heated screen turned on?

Hi @johny . Not sure if I have an earlier mkiv dash, or it changed, but I have 1 orange light towards the passenger side of the car/ dash and 1 red light to the direct left of the main dials in the dash (never ever comes on even on ignition). No lights in the speedo. 

[SLeonard]

13 hours ago, Steve P said:

I`m in Surrey but at the time I did the build on my Vitesse engine,  a well known Triumph man was working at Maynards so he did my engine, I went back to them for my Herald 1500 engine as I liked the guys there and trusted them. Martin did the tuning. Alex now runs it after he took over from Mark Maynard.

On the Jet, anti clock makes it richer, unless it`s a left hand thread. Haynes is correct, down for richer-up for leaner?. I always start at 2.5 full turns down from the bridge and go from there.

Steve

Thanks @Steve P! Great to have a recommendation. We’re going to speak with Maynards. I’ve checked and turning anticlockwise raises the jet making it leaner. I should trust my ear as the car is running better, smoother and even, and the strong petrol smell has gone. The throttle linkage is catching as well which looks to account for the high revs after a little use. The springs seem quite slack so may tension slightly and lubricate with silicon spray. Unfortunately its smoking now (blue smoke though, not black). I’m doing a compression test tomorrow as I suspect a worn ring or valve seal. Maynards may come in useful! Just seems odd to just start smoking now although the car is new to us and we have overhauled the ignition, charging, tightened belts and are using it more. I wonder if its just highlighted some wear elsewhere. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by SLeonard

[johny]

17 minutes ago, SLeonard said:

Hi @johny . Not sure if I have an earlier mkiv dash, or it changed, but I have 1 orange light towards the passenger side of the car/ dash and 1 red light to the direct left of the main dials in the dash (never ever comes on even on ignition). No lights in the speedo. 

I would say the red is your ignition light but the bulbs blown or wiring disconnected and the flickering orange one is your oil pressure. To confirm the latter just locate the oil pressure switch on the passenger side of the engine block and pull off its electrical connector. Without starting turn on the ignition and the orange light shouldnt illuminate until you put said connector back onto the pressure switch...

[Pete Lewis]

blue smoke  no you have leaned it to a more sensible setting 

blue is generally oil  white is coolant  black  excess fuel    all can be generated and give it an italian tune up to clear the exhaust of miles of sooty unburnt fuel may clear some of the smoke 

excess oil in the dashpots will get sucked into the induction and make blue smoke  

there are no valve guide seal fiited so they cant wear out 

do have look at the breather system  normally there is a metal gauze fire trap fitted inside the rocker cover where the breather tube is fitted  , need to prise the thing out and give it a good wash in petrol

always check the simples before committing the wallet 

 

[SLeonard]

8 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

blue smoke  no you have leaned it to a more sensible setting 

blue is generally oil  white is coolant  black  excess fuel    all can be generated and give it an italian tune up to clear the exhaust of miles of sooty unburnt fuel may clear some of the smoke 

excess oil in the dashpots will get sucked into the induction and make blue smoke  

there are no valve guide seal fiited so they cant wear out 

do have look at the breather system  normally there is a metal gauze fire trap fitted inside the rocker cover where the breather tube is fitted  , need to prise the thing out and give it a good wash in petrol

always check the simples before committing the wallet 

 

Sage advice again @Pete Lewis and appreciated. I’ll check the little things and see how it goes. Exhaust is black with soot. For the effort and peace of mind I will pressure test tomorrow as well as its a fairly simple test. 

[SLeonard]

So, compression test done, cylinder 3 spark plug was wet with oil, explaining the smoke. However, compression test results seemed okay to me?

cyl  reading1   reading 2

1      161         160
2     175         175
3     171         170    Wet Spark plug
4     166         165