Blown head gasket - how do I get it off?

[dougbgt6]

I've got all the new bits, everything is off the head and I'm ready to rock and roll, but it won't budge! Tried putting the plugs back and turning the engine over, but no joy. Charging the battery to get it a bit more vigorous.

 

I should have known, it's not been off the block for 25 years! Anybody got any ideas before I get the cold chisel out?

[Guest]

Hello Doug.

 

I had a similar situation with the Vitesse head a couple of years ago and not sure how long it had been in situ. 

 

Like you I used the turning over procedure for a number of days, which I think did help. In the end I removed all the cylinder head studs and fired the engine up - this worked.

 

Another option is to lever the head off with very wide flat bladed screw drivers; have to say I didn't like that idea much BUT everything has to be considered !!

 

I have heard that lifting the head with an engine crane can do it, but if it is that stuck then I envisage the car lifting as well.

 

It's at times like this when you really understand the full weight of a six pot iron head. 

 

Good luck.

 

Richard.

[Pete Lewis]

many years ago before they were classics  had a 2000 saloon off the deck with a tube in the ports and a trolley jack lifted the tyres off the ground.  i didnt  budge much

 

removed all the studs with a extractor and one still hung on , I had some small gap , so with a hacksaw blade covered with a cornflake packet as a protection sawed the stud through and off came the head ,  the threaded end in the block undid with fingers the remaining part of the stud  needed a sledge hammer and punch to get it out

 

to get studs out these days I use a chuck type which allows impact wrench power

 

 

so grease up the new studs so in 25 yrs time you wont have to struggle

 

and never use a load of rope and  find you have bent the con rod!!!!!!

[Clive]

Once the studs are all out (I said that quickly!) I have found using a bit of hardwood (in my case a foot of oak fencepost) and a hefty clubhammer, and not getting too aggressive, it will give way by knocking upwards at a shallow angle with steady hammering. But turning the engine over etc all helps.

[Last_Vitesse]

I'm with Clive I have not long taken the head off my Vitesse after 20 plus years

1. Take all the head studs out

2.Remove the water pump housing from the front of the engine.

3. Hefty chunk of 2 by 4 against the head and use a lump hammer in an upwards direction against the wood.

 

Worked for me.

 

Regards Mike

[dougbgt6]

Hadn't thought about taking the studs out. Get some lateral movement on it.  Can I put the studs back? Or is it new ones?

 

The last time I did this was in my dad's garage and I had a winch attached to a roof beam. Pulled off the head and then lifted out the engine. An engine crane! It's a possibility, maybe I could construct something?  

 

I'll try the fully charged battery tomorrow, engine crane hire? Maybe. D0on't fancy taking the studs out, but............

[Pete Lewis]

As soon as a small break on the join occurs you loose compression and nowt will happen

 

if the studs are firmly seized in the head you have a long way to lift it if theybare stiff all the waybup

 

take out the studs and its an easy lift, as there is nothing restricting the lifting

 

reuse the studs.....depends on the extractor some will damage the thread

and I dont think there is enough stud to use the double lock nut method, but worth a try

 

note where each stud comes from as theres normally a couple with different lengths

 

when replacing the thread with a score line up it goes in the block so any oil down the hole doesnt hyraulic the block and blow lumps out of it.when you screw the studs back in.

 

Let me know if you need my extractor and wrench I can escape down for a run to help out

 

pete

[dougbgt6]

OK, fully charged battery churning the engine is not making any impression on the stuck head. I suppose the fact that the gasket is blown means there ain't much compression anyway. So next I'll try the double nut method, maybe buy some shallower, sacrificial nuts. Failing that a stud extractor. New studs from Rimmers £94, canleys £43..... hum.

[JohnD]

All above, double plus good.

And double nutting can work, but the strain on the threads means new studs, and a stud extractor WILL damage them.

So, take any old 3/16" nut, not the good head nuts, and WELD them onto the studs.   They WILL come out, the heat helps, and new studs are best, so invest in a set.

 

JOhn

 

"Sacrificial" nuts!  Good word, for double nutting or welding!

[Guest]

Doug.

 

The only point I would add to John & Pete's proven suggestions is to spray some rust breaking fluid on all the studs a couple of days before hand and a few times a day; this will work its way down to deal with the rust. Everything to help will help.

 

Rimmer will price match Canleys, but I do prefer Canley as my first port of call.

 

In addition you will need to add new washers to your list as well.

 

When I did my cylinder head I got everything from Canley.

 

Good luck.

 

Regards.

 

Richard.

[dougbgt6]

Thanks guys!

 

I've already stocked up with new nuts and washers from Canleys. Rust breaking fluid, good idea. I've read you only put new studs in finger tight? Is that right? Some Loctite perhaps?

[Clive]

no loctite, and wind the studs in as far as they will go, may need a bit more than finger pressure but not much. Try to clean the threads in the block, you can use a bolt with 2 or 3 grooved cut along the length, and a little oil. And you want the holes nicely cleared out, and airline is really useful but otherwise you will have to improvise with pokey things and cotton buds or whatever.

 

A bit of light tapping (and I mean light) on the end of the stud may help too, ideally after whatever fluid has been applied for a bit. Try cleaning up where the stud goes into the head too, that will help create a well for fluid to sit in. Patience is a virtue here, plan b is brutality and a welder if double locking fiails.

 

BTW I believe Rimmers are Canleys biggest customer.........I reckon cutting out the middle man does no harm.

[JohnD]

Studs don't seize in the block, or the head to the block, it's gubbins in the rather wide holes around the head studs that lock the head in place.    None alone offer much 'stickyness' but as a whole the head becomes immovable.  That's why removing the studs, one by one, will free the head.    Rust fluid will, IMHO, achieve b*gg*r all.    Tapping the top of the stud, preferably with a BFH and using a giant's tap, would be more useful.

 

Putting in new studs.   I have ruined a good block by torquing a stud in and cracking the block, but later I found my torque wrench was underreading by 30%!   So check your torque wrench if you do torque them in.    Should you?    Finger tight is asking for trouble;  a light tweak with a wrench on the stud gripper may be fine.  Haynes gives no torque value for them, which may be where this arises.  My Original Mk 1 GT6 manual says 42-46lbs-ft, my facsimile Spitfire Mk IV manual syas 46lbs-ft.   Your choice.

 

John

[Pete Lewis]

Mk2  cyl head  7/16"  studs / nuts is 65/70 lbft.  there's no torque in the workshop manual listings for the Studs , i would certainly nip the studs up , hand tight .or a little more ,,  you are only screwing the stud into a thread not tightening anything to clamp it in place 

the nut does that on final assy.

 

there again it says  just  lift the head off       Ha!!!!

 

Pete

[Herald948]

Save for the cold chisels and flat-blade screwdrivers or other hard metal pry bars (a virtual guarantee that you'll damage or ruin the head, block or both), all of the above should help. I don't recall ever having to remove all the studs, but I have resorted to dead-blow (rubber faced) hammers or heavy sledge hammers on blocks of hard wood against the head. And then there's the ever-popular rope trick: stuff some rope down the spark plug holes of a couple of cylinders, then use the starter to turn the engine over. The rope can't really hurt anything, and it can only compress so much, after which it just might help push the head up enough to break the bonds!

[NeilF]

I seem to remember that having released the head, I put the exhaust manifold back on, and then used that to lift by hand and shake the head to get it to release. It worked as I do not remember having any other problem.

 

Worth a try.

 

NeilF 

[JohnD]

Save for the cold chisels and flat-blade screwdrivers or other hard metal pry bars (a virtual guarantee that you'll damage or ruin the head, block or both), all of the above should help. I don't recall ever having to remove all the studs, but I have resorted to dead-blow (rubber faced) hammers or heavy sledge hammers on blocks of hard wood against the head. And then there's the ever-popular rope trick: stuff some rope down the spark plug holes of a couple of cylinders, then use the starter to turn the engine over. The rope can't really hurt anything, and it can only compress so much, after which it just might help push the head up enough to break the bonds!

 

Maybe rope would be more resilient, but using the starter could damage the engine.    I won't post it again but I have a BENT CONROD - it's framed on my garage wall - to remind me not to do this with oil in the cylinder.    Breaker bar on the crank pulley nut would be safe.

 

John

[dougbgt6]

John, Pete has already warned against rope and I shan't be doing it! I also have suffered a bent con rod so I know it can happen. In my case an endcap bolt came out, the endcap twisted off and the con rod and piston smacked into the crank. The con rod and piston (bits) dropped neatly into the sump and the engine kept running, a surprisingly long time before the oil warning light came on!.

 

I've ordered the half height nuts to try double nutting, actually they're not half height, full height are 3/8" and half height are 1/4" and they're also called Jam Nuts, for some reason. Also ordered a stud extractor.  

[Pete Lewis]

if you get stuck my battery impact gun does 250 lbft  so enough grunt to shift pretty much all you ever find 

 

let me know if its needed 

Pete

[dougbgt6]

Thanks for that Pete!  Low profile nuts should arrive early next week, so I’ll know then if they’re going to work, or not, weather permitting. (Rain forecast for Monday.) I'll probably know by Wednesday if I need the gun!

 

[dougbgt6]

OK, got the half nuts, there's just enough stud thread to get two nuts fully on and locked together. Bad news is, in my debilitated state, I don't have the muscle power to heave on the spanner. I need a longer spanner or some sort of spanner extension. Alternatively, I could get one of my gorilla son-in-laws around to do the business. Time to stop and think.

[GT6M]

Olde engins, never been apart, always best to run engin wid the cyl heed nuts took off.

1,ooooooooooos of explosions of ign / combution  will brek the seal

and yer also getting heat into the subject too.

 

too late noo though !!

 

re studs an nuts,

be carefull ye no strip the threads,

esp wid a half nut,!!

 

mix some thinners an ATF fluid up,60 /40 ish

bung this in /on the studs,, it,ll soak doon the stud holes much better than any other stuff

 

M

[Mick]

Hello Doug,

 

Would there be enough room to get a crows foot spanner on the lower nut?

If so I have an Imperial 3/8 drive set.

I'm in Sandhurst so not that far away and could bring them up.

 

Regards, Mick

[dougbgt6]

Mick, that's very kind off you! A crows foot spanner might do it. The half nuts are 1/4" high so with one bolted on top of the other I've only got 1/4" to get a spanner in. Some of my spanners are too high, so it depends on how high the CFs are. 

[Mick]

Doug,

 

The crows foot spanners are  0.375 inch deep.

 

Might it might work with a 1/2 and full nut?

What size is the nut?

 

I've got all manner of spanners, some long, some short and might file one down provided it's not one of my favourite ones.

 

I used to be a TSSC member and now don't have a Triumph so I've joined the Forum only. When I had my Triumph I occasionally visited the Thames meetings but that would be about 3 years ago.

 

If you want me to lend a hand then I'll call the club and pass on my telephone number if they haven't got it already, then you can call them and get it.

 

Regards, Mick