Singing Canary round 2 - Vitesse Mk2

[Paul H]

Hi tried to fix the singing canary in my Vitesse Mk2 and fitted a spring on the PUSH ROD SLAVE CYLINDER .  The concept being the spring fits on the push rod and the extended spring stops the canary . Well it worked for a 100 miles then started again - So its round 2 . Removed the gearbox cover ( how I hate this job ) removed the push rod and added a much beefier spring see pic + the spring is extended further than last time - The pic also shows the original smaller spring -

There is a small amount of play if you wiggle the release bearing and this is what allows the canary to start singing . I know this is the source of noise as dipping the clutch the canary stops singing . Im assuming the release bearing wiggle is within tolerance ( see pic )

Any comments / advice welcome 

Paul 

[Pete Lewis]

The idea of the spring on the push rod is ok but....it can only react against the piston under the boot so instead of loading the lever to apply pressure to the throwout it will likely only push the slave piston futher back once the spring load has reduce the chirrup starts all over again as you have found

A spring attached to the lever and tethered on the housing   or somewhere would be better

The lever is a floating design so some  wiggle and waggle are normal

Could you wire up a link through the loop in the fork retaining spring ??

Pete

 

[Paul H]

7 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

The idea of the spring on the push rod is ok but....it can only react against the piston under the boot so instead of loading the lever to apply pressure to the throwout it will likely only push the slave piston futher back once the spring load has reduce the chirrup starts all over again as you have found

A spring attached to the lever and tethered on the housing   or somewhere would be better

The lever is a floating design so some  wiggle and waggle are normal

Could you wire up a link through the loop in the fork retaining spring ??

Pete

 

Thanks Pete , your suggestion of a spring attached to the lever and tethered to the housing is a much more practical solution - Glad the clutch release is allowed some wiggle & waggle room . 

Paul 

[Paul H]

1 hour ago, Paul H said:

Thanks Pete , your suggestion of a spring attached to the lever and tethered to the housing is a much more practical solution - Glad the clutch release is allowed some wiggle & waggle room . 

Paul 

Version 3 - springs attached to clutch release arm and secured to slave cylinder mounts 

Just needs testing now 

Paul 

[Pete Lewis]

now   where from here

there are two ways of silencing the canary  squeak 

you pull the release with some light load to keep the bearing spinning and not skidding on the fingers or you 

pull it away from the fingers and create a small gap.......... this may need a stop or you can return the slave right down its bore  with  a following lost pedal 

 

 Paul   good try,  your springs are pulling the bearing away ,  i would prefer other way round and pull into contact

can you reverse your design ????      pull it towards the gearbox 

[AidanT]

You could do Pete's suggestion by fitting a compression spring around the push rod?

Aidan

[Pete Lewis]

This what paul had done but the spring diameter is too small so  it reacted on the piston it needs to react on the cylinder

To keep the pressure on the fingers,  a heavier spring inside the slave would also work well

Pete

[daverclasper]

Mine has been working for miles now. It's like the middle picture, though with the spring only a couple mm proud of tip of the push rod. I wonder why mine has and Pauls, hasn't?.

Dave 

[Pete Lewis]

The idea is fine it needs to be strong enough to add some load ,  and it must react against some fixed  end like the cyl not the piston 

If it pushed against the boot then thats more static than the piston but its not best ,  

And the stiffer the throwout seals the more anti skid load is needed ,  it was a common problem with old designs and introduction of diaphragm clutches   moderns are more floating self aligning  set ups 

There is a light spring inside  the slave to do all this  but its inadequate and depends on the easy of piston movement in the slave some are 

 very free some are nearly siezed  

Pete

[Paul H]

21 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

now   where from here

there are two ways of silencing the canary  squeak 

you pull the release with some light load to keep the bearing spinning and not skidding on the fingers or you 

pull it away from the fingers and create a small gap.......... this may need a stop or you can return the slave right down its bore  with  a following lost pedal 

 

 Paul   good try,  your springs are pulling the bearing away ,  i would prefer other way round and pull into contact

can you reverse your design ????      pull it towards the gearbox 

Hi Pete - I chose 2 options to hopefully kill the canary 

1. Slave Cylinder Push Rod - added a stronger spring + longer overhang - I reduced the overall spring length so it didnt interfere with the rubber boot on the slave cylinder 

2. Attached a tensioned spring to pull back the clutch bearing arm ( as you suggested ) - If its not clear the spring section is held on with a cable tie at the release arm 

Tested by operating the clutch and all is tight and no rattles - road test is next 

Paul 

[Pete Lewis]

That's looking good   

Nice to see a lot of trying ,,  I hope the idea works

If you get withdrawl symptoms  ive got 20 cockatiels all singing and talking if that helps

Pete

[dougbgt6]

Thinking outside the box Pete, I like that, a couple of birds in the back and you don't notice what's going on in the front. Just like the old days.

Doug

[Pete Lewis]

Theres alot to be said about leather bench seats and a column change !!!

Pete

[Ian Foster]

Paul

I have just been through a similar exercise with my Mk2 GT6. I was getting a significant on/off 'rattle/thrash', which could be silenced by light clutch pressure (like your 'canary').

When we pulled the gearbox tunnel and road tested, it was immediately obvious it was the cutch fork. I did some online research and found a fair bit of info on Merican TR6 forums (don't have the link to hand at the moment-might have been TR experience). The TR system is more engineered, with the fork carried on cross shaft and appears to have its own set of problems. There was much debate on whether the clutch bearing should be in constant contact with the clutch fingers and 'long story short' it seems that it is somewhat dependant upon the type of bearing used. Various solutions with pull on and pull off springs tried.

I did a bit of investigating with an endosope and apart from determining that the bearing carrier can actually spin (it should be prevented from doing so by a detent in the carrier) all seemed OK, although the end of the slave pushrod had a strange angled wear pattern at the point that it contacts the shuttle, suggesting that it may have slipped out of the inverted cone in the rod side face of the shuttle and may have been resting against the cylinder wall. End reshaped and refitted.

Anyway I have concentrated on getting the clutch hydraulics back into tip top condition and have actually fitted a replacement master cylinder and new seal in the slave. The silicon fluid in the master cylinder was starting to discolour suggesting that there was some degradation of the seals. The MS was slightly pitted internally which might have been a contributory factor, but there were no leaks. The replacement MS is a TRW version which has a double main seal, plastic internal spring a nasty black plastic cap. It does however have a very positive action and with the system refilled and bled, the pedal feels right, the clutch disengages/engages nicely and the original problem has gone away (for now).

I am still concerned about the carrier being able to spin and I have found my original bronze carrier, bought and fitted a new RPH bearing from CW and found a NOS fork on ebay ready to fit when I next pull the gearbox.

Hope this helps.

Ian F

[Paul H]

19 minutes ago, Ian Foster said:

Paul

I have just been through a similar exercise with my Mk2 GT6. I was getting a significant on/off 'rattle/thrash', which could be silenced by light clutch pressure (like your 'canary').

When we pulled the gearbox tunnel and road tested, it was immediately obvious it was the cutch fork. I did some online research and found a fair bit of info on Merican TR6 forums (don't have the link to hand at the moment-might have been TR experience). The TR system is more engineered, with the fork carried on cross shaft and appears to have its own set of problems. There was much debate on whether the clutch bearing should be in constant contact with the clutch fingers and 'long story short' it seems that it is somewhat dependant upon the type of bearing used. Various solutions with pull on and pull off springs tried.

I did a bit of investigating with an endosope and apart from determining that the bearing carrier can actually spin (it should be prevented from doing so by a detent in the carrier) all seemed OK, although the end of the slave pushrod had a strange angled wear pattern at the point that it contacts the shuttle, suggesting that it may have slipped out of the inverted cone in the rod side face of the shuttle and may have been resting against the cylinder wall. End reshaped and refitted.

Anyway I have concentrated on getting the clutch hydraulics back into tip top condition and have actually fitted a replacement master cylinder and new seal in the slave. The silicon fluid in the master cylinder was starting to discolour suggesting that there was some degradation of the seals. The MS was slightly pitted internally which might have been a contributory factor, but there were no leaks. The replacement MS is a TRW version which has a double main seal, plastic internal spring a nasty black plastic cap. It does however have a very positive action and with the system refilled and bled, the pedal feels right, the clutch disengages/engages nicely and the original problem has gone away (for now).

I am still concerned about the carrier being able to spin and I have found my original bronze carrier, bought and fitted a new RPH bearing from CW and found a NOS fork on ebay ready to fit when I next pull the gearbox.

Hope this helps.

Ian F

Thanks Ian my canary noise isn’t loud just annoying though having put up with it for our 1400 mile Irish trip you get kind of get used to it 

The MS and Slave are all NOS and replaced in the last year.  

Should be able to road test later this week 

Paul 

[Ian Foster]

Make sure you road test with the tunnel out , which will be really nice a cosy with the current temperatures !!

You wouldn't want to put in in and then take it out again now, would you !

( I hate that job too, but with a mate we have got it down to quite a fine art),  a good job as we had to good in in fading light on the eve of the RBRR to change that stupid plastic ball at the base of the gearstick-now bespoke Delrin one)

Hope you have sorted it. Will look forward to your report.

Ian F

[Pete Lewis]

two types of anto rotation are used   one is the small diam  roll pin is fitted across the groove to trap on the fork pins  if the carrier is worn just drill and refit somewhere new

the later mod was a dimple pressed  into the groove side to prevent the pin passing and stop rotation

the release  bearings  are designed to spin all the time   hence the spring inside the slave ,   its just not strong enough or the bearing seals are 

stronger ,   skidding is also aggravated if there is any concentric alignment problems   and the finger design all come into play.

including many repalcement bearings are only 15mm thick when it should be  19mm thick  this places the lever pins below the centre line of the  front cover tube and pitches the  carrier 

solution is fit correct bearing or.... remove the spherical post and pack  it out with a couple of washers , brings the lever back to an 

equal see saw  position , not so its travels  eg from 11 to 1   not 1- 3oclock  

Pete

 

 

[Paul H]

Test drive today and the Canary has expired !!

I have no doubt she will be back to haunt me when I least expect it 

Thanks for all input 

Paul 

[Pete Lewis]

is this reply  a    'tweet'

im sure it wont return ..................... you could  have taught  it to talk ???

whos a pretty boy then  !!!

 

pleased the idea has works  ....you could market a     anti Canary Kit

Pete

 

[Ian Foster]

Paul

Sounds as though you have cracked it for now. Just watch out that RSPB don't catch you.

So in summary is your solution the spring on the pushrod and the spring on the lever?

Pete

Are we confident that the release bearing is supposed to spin all the time. Is there a reference source for this ?

Ian F

[Paul H]

4 minutes ago, Ian Foster said:

Paul

Sounds as though you have cracked it for now. Just watch out that RSPB don't catch you.

So in summary is your solution the spring on the pushrod and the spring on the lever?

Pete

Are we confident that the release bearing is supposed to spin all the time. Is there a reference source for this ?

Ian F

Hi Ian yes a spring on the push rod with an overhang of approx 10mm & a retaining spring attached the the gear box top and the release release bearing . Springs collection from Ebay about £6.00 

Paul 

[Pete Lewis]

yes the bearing is designed to be in contact all the time , there is a spring inside the slave cylinder to keep it up against the fingers 

the squeaks come from lack of pressure , stiff bearing seals and alignments , the diaphragm  fingers skid on the bearing face making this chirruping racket

in severe cases  the fingers wear and also wear a groove in the release bearing face, this ups the pedal loads as the fingers need to climb out of the worn groove

it was pretty common on many makes after diaphragm clutches got introduced , and the release  pad got binned ..... cost reductions ... diaphragms are cheap to make 

unfortunate but many makes have awful geometry and alignment  design problems in this area  .   its not just triumf.