Calliper carriers

[Algy]

Hi,

Has anyone out there any idea how I can get my hands on a pair of 2ltr Vitesse calliper carriers. My ones seem to have had a hammer to them as one is bent and the other cracked.

No one seems to hold them in stock new, so second hand would be the way to go.

I don't need uprights as I have a good set of them but they are 1600 Vitesse and the calliper carriers are different.

[thescrapman]

You could buy alloy ones from Canleys, sit down before ringing.

[Algy]

Thanks for that but I am trying to keep the car original as best I can.

[Clive]

Sidenote, the 1600 carriers are sought after by those who want to fit 4 pot callipers, so fetch a decent price (I sold some for £75, probably could have got more on the open market) GT6/2 litre Vitesse type should be easier to find, you could try Spitfire graveyard, or the used parts specialists. I will look in my garage tomorrow IF I get a spare moment (life has suddenly got VERY busy)

[Algy]

Thanks Clive. I am very busy myself.

I will try to get to talk to Spitfire Graveyard.

How do you recomend I sell the 1600 ones on flea bay or other?

[Clive]

The bay of thieves is as good as any, wide audience etc and the time to do it is a "max £1 fees" weekend, one of those finishing tonight....

[Clive]

No sign of any carriers in the garage, but will delve deeper when I get the chance

 

[thescrapman]

On 07/04/2019 at 22:04, Algy said:

Thanks for that but I am trying to keep the car original as best I can.

Why not buy the alloy ones and spray them rusty coloured?

[ahebron]

On 08/04/2019 at 18:21, clive said:

Sidenote, the 1600 carriers are sought after by those who want to fit 4 pot callipers, so fetch a decent price (I sold some for £75, probably could have got more on the open market) GT6/2 litre Vitesse type should be easier to find, you could try Spitfire graveyard, or the used parts specialists. I will look in my garage tomorrow IF I get a spare moment (life has suddenly got VERY busy)

Hi Clive

Please tell me more about the 4 pot calipers on Vitesse 6 carriers.

 

Thanks

Adrian

[JohnD]

Anyone considering 4 pot calipers shopuld bear in mind the Laws of Physics!      Friction is independant of area.    This is counterintuitive, so let's consider it.

The friction force that occurs between two rubbing surfaces is expressed by the equation;

           Force (F) = Coefficient of friction x Pressure between the surfaces (P).

That pressure is in force per unit area, pounds/in^2, Newtons/m^2, whatever.

Which is critical.    The hydraulic brake system exerts a certain pressure on the piston(s).   Divide that by the area of the pads to find "P".      

Now fit your 4-pot and bigger pads, and divide the same hydraulic pressure by the bigger area, and P will be smaller.  So will F.    But that is per unit area, so multiply F by the pad area, and you get the number you first started with!    Try it, with some imaginary numbers!     It's simple arithmetic!

So 4-pots, by themselves will give no benefit to your brake system.     If you can increase the pressure on the pistons by, say, fitting a smaller master cylinder, that would work, but you could do that to your OE caliper system too.

If you can fit larger wheels, and larger discs, then the moment of leverage that the pads have on the wheels is greater and the braking force will be more effectively applied.  But you could do that on your OE calipers, with rather more modifications.    A narrow brake pad distributed along the circumference of the disc will have a  centre of friction further from the centre, accentuating that advantage, and a 4 pot pad is narrower than the square OE pad, but the difference is minimal.

4 pots are bigger than OE calipers, so have a slightly greater thermal inertia, very, slightly, so will postpone the fade point.  Very slightly.  But they are heavier, increasing unsprung weight.

As always when modifying, it all depends on what you want.     "Better braking" - a properly rebuilt OE system is more than adequate for road use.     For track days, pass storming or hooligan driving, then a 'hotter' set of pads (Mintex 1155 are execllent) and/or a vented discs  will postpone fade to the far horizon.      The combination of both has abolished it on my race Vitesse.       4 pots?  No advanatge, IMHO.

JOhn

 

 

[Nick Jones]

HiSpec "Princess" copies.  May also be possible to use the Girling type 16 Callipers in their Ford form which include a wide version for vented discs as used on 2.8 Capri, Granada etc

[dave.vitesse]

49 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

HiSpec "Princess" copies.  May also be possible to use the Girling type 16 Callipers in their Ford form which include a wide version for vented discs as used on 2.8 Capri, Granada etc

Nick, You may correct me on this one but the Ford 16P has a different hole mounting spacing than the 16P Girling type used on the Vitesse. I used the 2.8 Capri set-up on my TR7 and the spacing is not the same as that on my Vitesse 2 Litre.

Dave

[johny]

I think the Vit 6 carriers are sought after precisely because they have different hole spacing to the later 2L type. It means you cant fit later the later Vit brakes but can use other calipers....

With 4 pots as John has explained above the benefit is not as expected but I would imagine the temperature reached on the surface of a larger pad for a given braking effort to be less which under very heavy usage could be useful. 

[dave.vitesse]

30 minutes ago, johny said:

I think the Vit 6 carriers are sought after precisely because they have different hole spacing to the later 2L type. It means you cant fit later the later Vit brakes but can use other calipers....

With 4 pots as John has explained above the benefit is not as expected but I would imagine the temperature reached on the surface of a larger pad for a given braking effort to be less which under very heavy usage could be useful. 

The problem with using the existing discs with an increase in pad/caliper size/area is the increase in heat generated is not dissipated.  Bigger pads/calipers require bigger discs. 

But if you can't increase the diameter of the discs to help dissipate the heat then vented disc are the way to go.

Dave

[Nick Jones]

1 hour ago, dave.vitesse said:

You may correct me on this one but the Ford 16P has a different hole mounting spacing than the 16P Girling type used on the Vitesse

You are correct.... but as Johny notes my point was that they do (I think) fit the Vit 6 calliper mounts (and Herald/Spit).  I have also read, but not tried, that you can then bolt the bigger discs from the 2L cars, ending up with everything but the bigger wheel bearings.

[johny]

20 minutes ago, dave.vitesse said:

The problem with using the existing discs with an increase in pad/caliper size/area is the increase in heat generated is not dissipated.  Bigger pads/calipers require bigger discs. 

But if you can't increase the diameter of the discs to help dissipate the heat then vented disc are the way to go.

Dave

I think, as John says, there is no increase in heat generated with bigger pads/calipers only that the heat is more disperse on the pads so the temperature reached in them is less. To get more braking force you need more hydraulic pressure and then of course more heat will be produced which is when larger pads/calipers and vented discs are needed to avoid excess temperatures....

[Clive]

17 minutes ago, Nick Jones said:

You are correct.... but as Johny notes my point was that they do (I think) fit the Vit 6 calliper mounts (and Herald/Spit).  I have also read, but not tried, that you can then bolt the bigger discs from the 2L cars, ending up with everything but the bigger wheel bearings.

I have a feeling Mr Pearson posted something about using the ford 16 callipers. A bit vague on the memory here, but he may have mentioned reducing the disc diameter slightly.

That may be my memory playing tricks, as the capri discs work perfectly with (spaced) vitesse callipers, and are the exact same diameter. Likewise princess 4 pots are a popular conversion on Fords. 

My old spitfire ran princess 4 pots (unspaced) with std vitesse/GT6 discs bolted to spitfire uprights/hubs etc. Braking seemed broadley the same as with vitesse calipers on a similar car. Piston area larger, so reduced effort on the pedal which "may" explain why the brakes appear to work better?

[Nick Jones]

1 hour ago, clive said:

as the capri discs work perfectly with (spaced) vitesse callipers

Provided you don't mine crispy TRE gaiters...... though to be fair mine were crispy already from the standard set-up....... Castle Coombe did that...... or Stelvio.....!

[JohnD]

2 hours ago, clive said:

I have a feeling Mr Pearson posted something about using the ford 16 callipers. A bit vague on the memory here, but he may have mentioned reducing the disc diameter slightly.

That may be my memory playing tricks, as the capri discs work perfectly with (spaced) vitesse callipers, and are the exact same diameter. Likewise princess 4 pots are a popular conversion on Fords. 

My old spitfire ran princess 4 pots (unspaced) with std vitesse/GT6 discs bolted to spitfire uprights/hubs etc. Braking seemed broadley the same as with vitesse calipers on a similar car. Piston area larger, so reduced effort on the pedal which "may" explain why the brakes appear to work better?

Thank you, Clive, practical confirmation of my points.

John

[Clive]

2 hours ago, Nick Jones said:

Provided you don't mine crispy TRE gaiters...... though to be fair mine were crispy already from the standard set-up....... Castle Coombe did that...... or Stelvio.....!

No problems with mine. But I had the hub face turned down to improve clearance.

I do have a set of genuine standard 8 TRE's that are very neat, and do not use rubber gaiters. Rather a pair of slotted metal "washers" so would not suffer in the same way.

[dave.vitesse]

Johny, Agreed. 

However, in a practical sense the net result is the discs get hotter if more braking effort can be applied to them. This heat needs to be dissipated. Hence vented or larger diameter discs are used with bigger pads/calipers. The bigger 2 Litre discs or vented discs on the Spit to me is a good way to go.

Clive, the vented discs look very sightly smaller than the standard 2 Litre type. But if yours fit OK on Vitesse calipers then it must be very small difference. When I get a chance I measure mine and feedback.

I agree with John that a properly rebuilt OE system is more than adequate for road use. Spits/Herald and Vitesse/GT6 OK. The exception to this may be the TR7 and the Dolomite Sprint due to small discs and pads/calipers.

John, I am interested where you applied imaginary numbers  (Operator I or J) in your calculations.

Dave

[johny]

yes when you look at the faster/heavier cars right up to the end of the eighties that used the type 16 calipers there cant be much wrong with them: 

TR6, Capri 2.8 turbo, MK3 Cortina and Granada incl Estate.....

[JohnD]

59 minutes ago, dave.vitesse said:

 

John, I am interested where you applied imaginary numbers  (Operator I or J) in your calculations.

Dave

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh!  A maths joke!    'i' didn't quite mean that!

J

[Clive]

7 hours ago, dave.vitesse said:

 

Clive, the vented discs look very sightly smaller than the standard 2 Litre type. But if yours fit OK on Vitesse calipers then it must be very small difference. When I get a chance I measure mine and feedback.

 

Dave

The capri vented discs are the exact same size (diameter) as GT6/vitesse discs. and the offset is very similar, just needs a washer, or at least I did. Plus the calliper spacer kit. Nick has been "playing" with brakes and has better technical info over my "try it and see" approach. Although some thought went into mine as I did get the hub faces machined, but that had a knock-on effect where the callipers were too far "out" by a mm or 2. But smaller spacer washers. And good clearance to the TRE's

[JohnD]

I use Capri 2.8i venteds.   Think they need redrilling for the studs.

J.