llessur Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 I am thinking about swapping out my existing 2.5 lump for another identical one which came from my old (now scrapped) 2500. Whilst I don’t know the full history of the ‘new’ engine, it ran well and with no nasty noises. The engine currently in my car has a bit of a knock on first startup and judging by the state of the oil, sludged up rocker gear and missing oil filter element when I first got the car, I suspect that maintenance may have been lacking – at least towards the end of its life (I did rescue it from a breakers yard so I guess that's to be expected). I can’t detect any crankshaft end float and I might just stick oil pressure gauge and compression gauges on it just out of curiosity but my senses tell me that the new engine has lead an easier life and, judging by the repainted block, may even have been rebuilt at some point in the past. As I’ll be swapping the gearbox and clutch out in the near future I thought I might as well go the whole hog and change the engine whilst I’m at it. I’d just be interested to hear people’s opinions on what work people think I should do on the ‘new’ engine prior to fitting. Would it be worth popping the sump off to check bearings etc? Short of a full overhaul, what other work would be a good idea before fitting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 Sump removal is easy enough, and will give you a few pointers to the engine health. So many have a thick laayerof sludge, so if clean that is a good sign. A look at the bearing won't hurt either. Even the thrusts.... But if no end float they should be good. Other than that, if it was running well, fill with oil and use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted July 23, 2019 Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 Im with Clive , New plugs and check the tappets etc clean fuel,pump. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llessur Posted July 23, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2019 Cheers Clive/Pete, I had the engine running when I was driving the (now departed) TC so it's already got pretty new plugs, clean fuel filter etc. Valve clearances were checked but I'll do them again as part of the tuning process just to be sure. I've got a rebuilt set of HS6s to swap over so that should be easy. Seeing as it's out I might whip the sump off and have a quick look - I'll regret it if I don't. It will be interesting to see how clean it is in there and to check a couple of the bearings which might answer some questions as to whether it's been rebuilt at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted July 24, 2019 Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 Look at the oil pump as well. Its very easy to remove with the sump off and can be checked with a feeler gauge although it might be that a new one will be of higher capacity and worth putting on regardless..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted July 24, 2019 Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 True, but aware all the people I know who checked new pumps found them to be outside the factory specs, and worse Han the old one. Chris Witor sells blueprinted pumps, or a bit of refacing on the old one can help. ( Flat surface, the abrasive paper and wd40) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted July 24, 2019 Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 thats possible however its not just that the new pump 'should' be in better condition than the original but that its physically bigger (not sure of this on a 2.5L) so giving a higher flow rate.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted July 24, 2019 Report Share Posted July 24, 2019 Yes, not sure when the pumps became the higher capacity ally type, certainly the later engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llessur Posted November 7, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2019 So, a bit more of an update on this one. Have had a look at the spare engine and there is quite a bit of fore-aft play in the crankshaft. I haven't had the sump off yet and I don't have a micrometer but I would say it's around the 0.5mm mark by eye which is definitely outside of the upper limits so the thrust washers will definitely need replacing as a minimum. Plan therefore is to get it on an engine stand, whip the sump off and have a look at the thrust washers and crank main bearings and go from there. I'll see what I can see of the bores from below, or I might even splash out on a new head gasket and take a look from above - it would be interesting to see the condition of the valves and also whether the pistons are original or oversized. What's the best way to make an off-car assessment on the condition of the bores and rings? Presumably with the bores I'm looking for no scoring or lip at the top, preferably with honing still visible? Is there a way to determine if the piston rings are still serviceable? If I'm this far with the dismantling process (sump and head off) is it worth popping the pistons out to check the rings? This will be my first foray into the world of engine rebuilding so am really just trying to figure out where to stop. As I'm in Australia postage for parts from the UK (not huge availability out here) costs a fortune and takes ages so I'd rather buy any parts I need in one go as opposed to placing multiple orders as I find I need stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted November 7, 2019 Report Share Posted November 7, 2019 Rings are tricky, you can sort of feel if the rings are stuck or no tension, but not easy. Other idea I had, and just an idea, it to put a known volume of a thin oil or paraffin or suchlike into each bore, and compare between the 6 how long it takes to drain out. Unlikely all 6 are equally knackered if there is a serious problem. I have got my engine apart (TR7 in my Toledo) as it was "not well" and breathing very heavily/poor running. I wish I had run a compression test to see how each bore compared, but too late now. A couple of pistons the rings have lost their tension, and the land between the compression rings has broken on one. On all 4 the rings seem to have worn to the extent they are very loose and can move up/down. All very tired. A slight lip on the bores, but if the pistons had been undamaged, I would have been happy to hone and re-ring. Luckily I acquired a very recently rebuilt but stripped short engine that had been dismantled, and had the crank, pulley and flywheel balanced to a high level. So that has been honed cleaned out and is ready to start rebuilding. But these engines are not difficult, with the exception of stuck fixings from time to time. If you have somebody experienced who can be bribed to take a look that can be very helpful. But often just some new thrusts, big ends and mains will mean the engine has many more miles left in it. Again I have just looked at bearings and journals, and if just lightly worn or a scratch or 2, new bearings and all has been well. Serious damage is bad news. Sorry for the ramble.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougbgt6 Posted November 7, 2019 Report Share Posted November 7, 2019 You say the new engine ran. If you can still turn it over by hand I don't see why, with the engine "restrained", you couldn't attach a battery to the starter and do some compression tests. This should tell you what you need to know and what you need to do. My engine had bad end float when I bought my car and the bearings were easy enough to replace, although I had other problems later on due to the end float. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted November 7, 2019 Report Share Posted November 7, 2019 i had endfloat due to thrusts being fitted about face so it will need a new crank at some time ,in the meantime the journal face wear has held the spec'd float with new thrusts which have bedded into the worn face all a bit of a unliked situation. as for rings its pop a piston out , , do get a decent ring clamp ready for refitting , pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted November 7, 2019 Report Share Posted November 7, 2019 I think with deciding how much engine work to do you need to consider how long youre likely to keep the car and how many miles its going to cover. I know its satisfying having a blue printed engine that youve enjoyed doing (that can be enough justification for throwing loads of money at it🤗) and of course it might increase the resale value a bit but I like using a bit of judgement... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llessur Posted November 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2019 Right, have started delving into the engine - got it up on the stand today, took the sump off and had a look at the main bearings 2, 3 & 4 and the thrust washers. Some pictures and notes from what I have seen are below. Crank bearings are standards, thrusts were one standard and one 0.005" (Vandervells). Main 2 Some light scoring on the crank journal and bearing, none that can be felt with the fingernail. Being picky you can just about feel a slight change between the area of the journal which runs on the bearing and the central part which is in the oil way. It is barely perceivable but it is there. Main 3 Only very light scoring to the crank journal and the bearing. Nothing that can be felt with a fingernail. Main 4 Very light scoring to the crank journal, nothing that can be felt with a fingernail. A couple of deeper scores to the bearing face - probably due to thrust washer issue (see below). Thrusts Pictures say it all. One (the front-most i.e. the one which takes most of the load when the clutch is depressed) has started to break up. The crank bearing faces seem to be OK - some very light scoring to the front-most one where the bearing has broken up, but not able to feel with fingernail). End float was actually within tolerances - about 0.006". Sump Bit of sludge in the bottom, nothing too major. I can't get a very good look at the bores from below, from what I can see there's no major scoring but I might whip the head off when I next get a chance to take a proper look from above. Cam seems in good condition - no scoring or obvious lobe wear. God knows what has happened to that thrust bearing, although I have seen this before on a Triumph forum, not sure where now. Luckily the damage seems to be limited to some very light scoring to one of the crank's thrust bearing faces and some slightly deeper scoring on the main number 4 bearing. Based on what I've seen so far and given the fact that I don't use the car regularly - it's by no means a daily driver, it'll mainly see a few country runs and local events every year - I'm tempted to fit some new thrusts and standard main bearings and put it back in. Feedback welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted November 28, 2019 Report Share Posted November 28, 2019 I found a thrust like that on my 2L although not as bad and not sure what can cause it. My thrust hadnt done a lot of miles since I put it in to replace OE ones that were slightly too slack so maybe they were a bit on the tight side or its a quality issue.... Anyway I dont think mine, or yours, was bad enough to have caused any damage to the crank as theyre not through to the steel backing so I agree with your idea of reassembly as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted November 28, 2019 Report Share Posted November 28, 2019 You’ll often see the thrust washer on the flywheel side with marks like that. I speculate that it’s caused by a habit of starting from cold with the clutch pedal depressed. Some of the washers available have a more coppery colour which seem to be more resistant to this so I always fit them to the flywheel side at least if I have one available. You can get solid phosphor-bronze ones from Custom Thrust Washers in the US, but probably not justified at your proposed usage level. I agree that reassembly with new shells and thrust washers is the way to go. In fact, if the existing ones are VP2 and show no breakthrough to copper at all I’d be sorely tempted to reuse them provided they go back in the exact same locations they came from. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llessur Posted November 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2019 I couldn't see any manufacturer stamp on the mains - any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted November 28, 2019 Report Share Posted November 28, 2019 comes up as Glacier which sounds possible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted November 28, 2019 Report Share Posted November 28, 2019 1 hour ago, johny said: comes up as Glacier which sounds possible... So aluminium tin bearings which won’t show any copper as a wear guide. Best to renew. I had previously been conditioned to despise Aluminium/tin bearings but when I pulled my old Vitesse engine apart recently (I thought for the first time since it left the factory, but obviously not) it had a full set of Glaciers in there in near perfect conditions in spite of at least 70k and some quite serious abuse..... The crank was also perfect and only needed a light polish. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johny Posted November 28, 2019 Report Share Posted November 28, 2019 yes when you read up on types of plain bearings its not a straight forward case of one sort being better than the other as each as advantages and disadvantages. For the use and mileage we generally give our cars ally/tin look quite attractive not least on price.... Not sure about Glacier bearings as I thought theyd been taken over by Vandervell and theres reports of them being sold under the new owners name. Are they always Ally/tin construction? Its difficult to say in the pictures but when Ive seen low mileage bearings not all the running surface has been polished especially up the sides whereas these look to have done a few miles so while its apart Id go for replacing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted November 28, 2019 Report Share Posted November 28, 2019 I think Glacier bought Vandervell and then put aluminium tin bearings in their boxes. I’ve had a couple of disappointments due to this..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Lindsay Posted November 28, 2019 Report Share Posted November 28, 2019 I'm currently in the middle of the same job on a 1200 engine and those photos are so familiar, especially the thrust washer which is like that on mine, too. My crank looks in roughly the same condition as yours, which is very surprising for this engine - the main bearings too are excellent but the big end / con rod ones are down to the copper in places. The brown ring is deposits from the oil which speaks volumes about the state of the engine which has not turned over since 2003 - but yet there are no marks that you can feel with a fingernail. Now - re replacement bearings - I have a NOS set of Big End bearings by Vandervell, VP898, but marked as 'heavy duty'. Any idea of what material they may be made from to make them so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
llessur Posted November 28, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2019 Can the big ends be changed with the crank in-situ? Will whip a couple off and take a look if so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted November 28, 2019 Report Share Posted November 28, 2019 Yes. They can. Colin, the heavy duty bearings are probably tri-metal which will have been what the factory fitted. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted November 29, 2019 Report Share Posted November 29, 2019 yes drop the rack mounts and lower as far as possible the front suspn, x member and the sumps off pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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