Half shaft to diff flange bolts

[diggler]

Hi all, spent far too long this weekend trying to shift the bolts attaching the half shaft to diff flanges on my Vitesse 2 Litre. Despite loads of penetrating oil nothing doing. Not aided by only being able to get spanners onto the nut and bolt heads, so little leaverage. I’ve even resorted to trying to cut the bolt but can’t get a decent angle onto it. 
So, any advice? Getting it to a garage isn’t a desirable option as I don’t want to put the everything else back at the hub end and reconnect and bleed the brakes.

[Josef]

Wedge a ring spanner on the nut and against a convenient bit of chassis. Bolt something appropriately lever like to the wheel studs and turn the hub so it’ll turn the spanner against the chassis and loosen the nut. 

[Pete Lewis]

sound like they have been done up by a gorilla  

on the vitesse they should be 3/8unf and basic torqure (if you wanted to measure) is 29/31 lbft   thats hand tight with a normal spanner 

its unfortuneate triumph did not match the coupling shoulder to lock the bolt heads  then only one spanner is needed but they were not that clever 

a decent ring spanner should shift these nuts unless the gorrilla fancied trying to shear them  

pete

 

[Colin Lindsay]

My usual solution is to get a ring spanner on the nut, one on the bolt, as close to each other as possible, then squeeze with one hand. Quite often you can't get two hands near it and if you do, when they finally shift you clack your knuckles together very painfully. Two spanners positioned so that you can grip them with one hand, then squeeze, usually works.

[68vitesse]

Made these up some time back, spanner extenders which are available commercially, the smaller one you fit the spanner and use a square drive.

It also takes a torque wrench if needed.

Regards

Paul.

 

[diggler]

Thanks all, confirmed my thoughts that these are tighter/more seized than normal.  I’ll try the hub trick @Josef and look into spanner extenders @68vitesse too - never seen those before!
In stripping down the hub assembly it looks like it’s not been apart before - unmarked bolt heads, factory paint under washers, etc. It’s a 67 and was dry stored for about 20 years before I got it. All this is because I need to replace he hub bearings, and base n experience so far I’m dreading getting the hub and bearings off - even with a proper hub puller!

[Mjit]

18 hours ago, Colin Lindsay said:

My usual solution is to get a ring spanner on the nut, one on the bolt, as close to each other as possible, then squeeze with one hand. Quite often you can't get two hands near it and if you do, when they finally shift you clack your knuckles together very painfully. Two spanners positioned so that you can grip them with one hand, then squeeze, usually works.

One to extend on this if necessary is to loop some strong rope around the spanners, then the ends around a pry bar or similar and twist.  Basically applying a tourniquet where the more twists you put in the rope the tighter it pinches the 2 spanners together.  Doesn't take much to exceed 'hand squeeze' force, and without the palm bruises!

[chrishawley]

19 hours ago, diggler said:

shift the bolts attaching the half shaft to diff flanges

Just wondering if you've made any progress?

Only just dawned on that this is not a half-shaft issue as such, but rather a generic seized fastener issue, just in a particularly-awkward-to-deal-with position.

So in that respect it's all the 'usuals' for dealing with seized fasteners. Not a good position, though, for the use of heat. But including trying to tighten the nut(s) further since even a µgnats of movement can be enough to break the bond between nut and bolt.

I've not been previously introduced to spanner extenders. But in similar vein; not infrequently I'll sacrifice a spanner by wedling (or even welding) it to some steel bar or cut the head off one end so a steel tube or box section can be slid over in order to extend. Given that set of budget spanners can still be had for less than a tenner sacrificing a tool can be the most efficient thing where time v. money is concerned.

[Pete Lewis]

sometimes a size 10 can   work  

if you can get on it whilst under the car 

pete

[68vitesse]

Budget spanners are usually not the best to put extra leverage on as quality and fit can be suspect and can lead to damage of the nut and bolt head causing even more of a problem. My lever spanner extender was made with a bit of scrap bar and angle I had, quickly made if you have a welder, the spanner held in place with an elastic band or velcro cable tie.

My local steel stock holder wil let you have a good selection from their off cut bin for a contribution to their tea and biscuit fund.

Regards

Paul.

[Wagger]

I used combination spanners on all of my diff and prop flanges. (Flat ring one end, open at the other). I have a 'Metrinch' set that work well on rounded nuts. Using Colin's method is good, but I sometimes use a stout piece of pipe as a sleeve over the spanner as an extender. Usually, one of the spanners jams against something so I only need to hold one spanner.

Handbrake on, good axle stands and loosen all before removing any, otherwise you can get into a spin.

[johny]

And we believe you🤪

[Wagger]

1 hour ago, Mathew said:

I normally use the squeeze two spanners together method for doing up and undoing. It helps when you have been a plasterer, tends to build up the arm muscles, at least thats my excuse 😉

Riding a motorcycle with heavy clutch springs and no hydraulic front brake was my excuse, plus riding bolt upright at 70+ mph for some fifteen years.  I developed forearms as big as any blacksmith. Sadly waning away now.

[diggler]

On 11/07/2022 at 14:56, chrishawley said:

Just wondering if you've made any progress?

Only just dawned on that this is not a half-shaft issue as such, but rather a generic seized fastener issue, just in a particularly-awkward-to-deal-with position.

So in that respect it's all the 'usuals' for dealing with seized fasteners. Not a good position, though, for the use of heat. But including trying to tighten the nut(s) further since even a µgnats of movement can be enough to break the bond between nut and bolt.

I've not been previously introduced to spanner extenders. But in similar vein; not infrequently I'll sacrifice a spanner by wedling (or even welding) it to some steel bar or cut the head off one end so a steel tube or box section can be slid over in order to extend. Given that set of budget spanners can still be had for less than a tenner sacrificing a tool can be the most efficient thing where time v. money is concerned.

I’ve not had a chance to get back under the car; I’ve ordered a spanner extension and will give that a go at the weekend.

[diggler]

Update: finally got back on the spanners, and with some rubber mallet action, managed to get 3 undone. The fourth was cut. Big relief! Now to get the hub off and the bearing changed. 

[Pete Lewis]

is this Mk1 or Mk2 rotaflex  car ????

on a swing axle  shaft  if the hub puller ( protect the threads)  resists  leave it on overnight it can pop of when its given up 

 

Pete

[diggler]

15 hours ago, Pete Lewis said:

is this Mk1 or Mk2 rotaflex  car ????

on a swing axle  shaft  if the hub puller ( protect the threads)  resists  leave it on overnight it can pop of when its given up 

 

Pete

It’s a Mk1. 

[Pete Lewis]

once the hub flange pops off you can fight the shaft out of the bearing 

there is an adaptor to add to the puller to drag the bearing hsg, off  but a decent vice and some sweat will whack the shaft out of the bearing

when refitting just fit the shaft through enough to fit the hub and its nut let the nut pull the bearing hsg. into place or if you get it wrong the drum will be misplaced on the shoes

the bearing is a loose fit in the hsg. but very tight on the shaft as thats all that holds it in place there is no register on the shaft to locate the bearing position

Pete

[Colin Lindsay]

11 minutes ago, Pete Lewis said:

once the hub flange pops off you can fight the shaft out of the bearing 

there is an adaptor to add to the puller to drag the bearing hsg, off  but a decent vice and some sweat will whack the shaft out of the bearing

Remember to keep the nut on the end and so protect the threads!

[68vitesse]

My adapter, used on my Mk1 2L Vitesse, made from a pipe flange with bearing housing puller. Found that when using hub puller put hub under tension then hold your biggest hammer against the puller then hit opposite the hammer with your next biggest.

Sledge and lump recommended, I use a metal plug in the part removed nut to protect the shaft end.

Regards

Paul.

 

 

 

[diggler]

On 23/07/2022 at 18:20, Pete Lewis said:

is this Mk1 or Mk2 rotaflex  car ????

on a swing axle  shaft  if the hub puller ( protect the threads)  resists  leave it on overnight it can pop of when its given up 

 

Pete

It’s a Mk1. 

[diggler]

Thanks guys, some good tips. I’ve got a proper puller and it was pretty straightforward  -  went with a massive bang, just like everyone says! I’ve used a 2 leg puller to pull the bearing and carrier off the shaft…and oh dear, looks like this shaft is toast. 
 

The car was sat for over 20 years and recommissioned by the previous owner. Think the grease solidified and the needle bearings became too friendly with the shaft.
 

A few of the cups on the UJs were dry and the yoke arms heavily ridged when I stripped those, with solid grease in the yoke meaning new grease could never get to the cups. 

I expect I’ll find similar when I strip the other side down, so I’m committed to doing the whole back end now!

[Pete Lewis]

so the wheel bearing has had a seizure and the shaft has rotated in the bearing  by the look of that 

it the new brg. a loose fit  ???  you may recover that with loctite Bearing Fit   its made to repair this sort of failure   

but whilst it grips very securely   this fit is all that holds the shaft and bearing in place for all the suspension loading 

you dont want the shaft moving in the bearing   ever 

Pete

 

[johny]

No, as theyre axial lines I think thats just where the roller bearing has been a very good fit for a long time and has marked the shaft as its been pulled off. The needle roller runs closer to the dust shield and there is a bit of marking on the shaft but Ive seen far worse. Was it taken apart because of some noise or roughness?

[diggler]

Thanks both. The bearing had started to ooze black grease onto the backplate (I was changing the slave cylinder), but there was no noise or rumbling when driving, so think I got it pretty early. 

I’ll clean it all up properly and try it with the new bearings to see if they feel loose as suggested. If not, and as johny says he’s seen worse, it might be okay to go back on.